i just sorted through some old papers and found this speech. pretty darn good stuff scattered in here.

Today it would be, "give me personal security and protection from life at the expense of liberty!"

Make others compensate me for any suffering i may experience or give them lawsuits!

That's one onld paper.

i really don't remember making this thread

Absolutely.

Or, as Hugo Chavez says, "Fatherland, Socialism, or death!"

Nationalism and socialism. A winning combination.

To me, liberty is no fear, no worries, no shame, and the right to make my own choices. But I wouldn't feel free if I was having fun at the expense of other people. And if other people were totally free to physically harm me I would be scared --> not free either.

But then there's this confusing lyric: "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose". And I'm pretty attached to material things, like my house or my car.

groetjes,
Mirella

Give me the liberty to do as the government says I can, or give me death...

Give me liberty, but no responsibility!

Interesting words, from a Marine...

The bolded part is what I would consider to be "infancy" not "liberty". It's nice, but it ain't being "free".

What if you make choices that lead to fear, worry, and/or shame?

What has it got to do with age? To me, it's freedom. Not nice, but essential. If you lack that, you're not living, but surviving. If you're a slave for other people, you're not free. It's very similar to being paralysed by fear, worries or shame. If it's from within, you can work on it to get rid of it, but if it's the other people causing it, that's a different case. Have you ever been afraid in your own house or town because people threatened to harm you? Or threatened by people that had the goal to make you lose your house and everything else? That was actually what I meant. Sorry for not being this explicit from the start. That might have prevented you from using a word like 'infancy', same category as 'naive'....

groetjes,
Mirella

How do you reconcile this with your views on income redistribution and socialism?

Perfect fit. Everybody should have enough to eat and live. There will always be richer people, but they can easily spare some tax to support the system that keeps everybody happy.

groetjes,
Mirella

I just consider a life free of worry or fear as being something short of being fully alive, and certainly short of being free and independent. I used the word "infancy" because "no fear, no worries, no shame" evoked images in my mind of my 3 year-old running around the house with no pants on. He seems REALLY happy and "free", but he will not be a functioning adult if he stays in that state of emotional security.

More close to home, it reminds me of myself 10 years ago, in school, living off of my parents, getting stoned all the time, and being in all ways irresponsible and unprepared to live my life as an independent man. Growth and maturity, to me, means facing and addressing one's fears and worries, and not attempting to "be free" of them.

This is right in keeping with the gun discussion in the other thread, and the state as parent and protector. I know that in life there will always be some people who try to capture the essence of being alive by reverting to the primal and primitive. Some will choose to do this by remaining "forever young", attempting to recapture or preserve the joys of youth and childhood and the feeling of having no weight of responsibility on one's shoulders. Others will take the opposite path, choosing to find communion with that pre-historical man or woman inside of us, the primitive whose every day was a struggle with the elements, for basic survival, in direct contact with the beautiful but dangerous natural world. "Back to the garden" versus "back to the womb". I think there are deep roots on opposite sides of the pond for the cultural differences along these lines.

Interesting how? Be careful not to step in it. It's a big pile right in front of you.

This is where we disagree. Most functioning adults I know had a stable background, no serious problems whatsoever, and a very positive attitude about everything. Of course, there's the way of struggling and surviving and learning from the bad things, but I don't think they are necessary to be truly happy and free. I even think it's better to not (have to) go that way. I don't believe in the 'no highs without lows' and 'learning through coping'. Maybe because I've had my share, and the negatives outweigh the positives.



You can also see it as a verb: be freed from them by facing and addressing.



No, I think that's more personal than cultural. In every country there are people with different opinions about everything. It's also a factor of risk accepting. In order to enjoy life and be free, I focus on the minimization of life taking threats, like guns, while other people focus on the adrenaline (primal instinct?) that runs through your veins when not being shot, and accept the higher risk of not even being alive in return. I don't see a government as a womb. Grown up parents can be your home base too . And I love gardening

groetjes,
Mirella