http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/magaz ... rve&st=cse

Questions for Charles Murray, Libertarian Political Scientist and Author of "The Bell Curve"

1 Although attending college has long been a staple of the American dream, you argue in your new book, “Real Education,” that too many kids are now heading to four-year colleges and wasting their time in pursuit of a bachelor’s degree.

Yes. Let’s stop this business of the B.A., this meaningless credential. And let’s talk about having something kids can take to an employer that says what they know, not where they learned it.

2 You’re not the first social scientist to knock the liberal arts, but you may be the first to insist that only 20 percent of all college students have the brains and abilities to understand their assigned reading.

Eighty percent are not able to deal with college-level material, traditionally understood. Someone can sit down with Paul Samuelson’s textbook and stare at the pages and know what most of the words mean. That does not mean that they walk away from it understanding economics as it is taught in the textbook.

3 What do you propose that 18-year-olds do instead of trying to learn the difference between macro- and microeconomics?

Oh, the world of work out there!

4 I’m sure you’re aware that unemployment is very high right now.

There are very few unemployed first-rate electricians. I can get a good doctor in a minute and a half. Getting a really good electrician — that’s hard. If you want jobs that are in high demand, go to any kind of skilled labor. And by labor, I mean things that pay $30 or $40 an hour.

5 Europeans have historically defined themselves through inherited traits and titles, but isn’t America a country where we are supposed to define ourselves through acts of will?

I wonder if there is a single, solitary, real-live public-school teacher who agrees with the proposition that it’s all a matter of will. To me, the fact that ability varies — and varies in ways that are impossible to change — is a fact that we learn in first grade.

6 I believe that given the opportunity, most people could do most anything.

You’re out of touch with reality in that regard. You have not hung around with kids who are well in the lower half of the ability distribution.

I'm pretty sure that 5 and 6 are just a bunch of bullshit...

I'm definitely more skeptical about college now that I've gone out to the "real" world. Let's face it, I learned more for my professional life running this damn website then I did in the classroom.

I see no reason why universities don't have at least a 50% failure rate. Way too many students get degrees who possess zero critical or analytical thinking skills. Regurgitation of facts should be enough to win you a game of Trivial Pursuit not get a degree.

It really depends on what you get your degree in. I'm of the opinion that liberal arts degrees are next to worthless, as are business degrees, whereas more technical fields such as engineering, computers, medicine, and accounting do require a real education (but an education still needs to have real world experience with it).

I'd say most of my technical knowledge that I use on a day to day basis was learned outside of school, but I still don't think I'd be nearly as prepared careerwise if I didn't get my degree.

I, and all other Trivial Pursuit masters, resent that remark.

I don't see much to argue against in the OP.

Charles Murray = huge

I've been struggling to finish school for almost eight years now, but the last five have been filled with enrolling, dropping, "taking a semester off". The first three were a solid 3.0 at a small, private liberal arts school. I consider myself intelligent enough when I apply myself, I just don't apply myself when it comes to school. I read plenty of books about plenty of subjects I want to learn about, but unfortunately that doesn't transfer to my gpa. I've wasted a lot of time and money, yet I am still trying for a degree. Why? Because I feel like I have to have one to start a family. That's probably all in my head, but it's a a stubborn, unshakable belief.

On the flip side, my resume is pretty good. I've held a steady job as simultaneously a food and beverage manager/special events coordinator, and when I realized after lots of hard work that I didn't want a future in F&B, I moved to a gym and made a quick rise to management and earned extra bucks on the side as a swim instructor. Now that I'm in Houston I work for an after school program at a Catholic school and really love it. More than anything I've ever done. I've considered teaching, which is ironic because I can't seem to learn.

The point being, I have incredible work ethic and terrible school history. I feel I can contribute something to society, but why do I have such anxiety about taking so long to finish school? I imagine it's because I've been raised in a society that caters to people that have earned the degree.

I found my undergrad to be pretty much on a level with high school, where my masters was a fantastic and powerful experience.

I used to think college was a total rip off. In some cases it is.
But in order to be more competitive, a degree, a license, or a certification (any accreditation) is what's going to give you the edge. So you have to suck it up and keep at it. Putting one foot in front of the other. Taking it one day at a time. I recently expressed my own anxiety to an IT friend of mine overseas. His advice was to not look too far ahead, but tackle one chapter of each book at a time. Once you get out there, you really aren't going to be as prepared as you think you might be. And that's ok.

I could easily skip college and learn on my own then go take the CCNA exam, outside of any "university" setting. there is no formal education required to get the initial license in my field. But college, and the required courses, help round out my entire education. It gets me out among people doing what I do, and I'm learning to speak the "language" I'll need to speak while on the job. It also points me in the direction of a lot more resources so I can do extra study on my own free time. All this will better prepare me to pass my exam. It's a killer exam too from what I've heard. It would nice to pass it the first time. Then I can go ANYWHERE in the world and get a job.


But like tyler says here:



some students just don't apply themselves. I think I was one of 5 students (out of 30) in my programming class that were actually paying attention. Most students (I'm not even kidding) were playing on myspace, playing video games, or staring at an IM window throughout the semester. It was the biggest waste of government grant money/ or mommy and daddy paid tuition I've ever seen. I shudder to think any of those students had taken out student loans to go play on myspace in a college course.

UNC is expanding and eating up the neighborhoods around mine. Fuck college.

I strongly feel that this "All children can go to college" goal is bullshit.
High schools should offer more vocational programs than college prep courses.

Liberal arts and business degrees can be priceless if what they do is instill in you the ability to think critically and analytically. The problem is that most don't.

Why not get a degree that instills in your the ability to think critically and analytically and learn a useful skill?

Wait, that would be bad for me. Never mind.

What's the percentage of college students that change their course of study from freshman year to graduation? It's pretty high. I don't know, maybe somebody can completely retool the education system so you can learn in like eight different vocational directions to cover all your bases, but I don't know how efficient that is. Speaking as somebody who had no idea what he wanted to do for the majority of my college days, and speaking on behalf of the likely hundreds of thousands of kids who were in my shoes, those classes that fostered analytical thought were the reason I knew what I wanted to do.

My B.A. equipped me with invaluable life skills... like shades said, the ability to apply study habits and critical thinking skills to whatever I'm doing. A lot of the people who get nothing out of B.A. majors are the same folks who put nothing into it. It's not that way for everybody, but to pan the entire system is shortsighted.

I think more kids should be discouraged from going to college immediately after high school. Work for a few years and decide what you really want to do instead of just going to some state school as an english major.

Thats me basically. I kind of know that Im better than 95% of people, but 95% try things harder. Im trying to change and i believe im having some success, my trip to Norway, where people are really hard working (without being grumpy, what i found incredible) really had a influence on me.

I have big long term plans now and its really a matter if i will or not fail in life.

So a political scientist is saying that BA degrees are mostly useless....

If 80% of the incoming class can't handle reading 100 level classes, how are they going to understand the intricacies of electrical work (esp with the consequences of mistakes highlighted - no pun intended)?