Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:36 am Posts: 3556 Location: Twin Ports
Battle over the past rages on in an evolving South
By Patrik Jonsson | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
RALEIGH, N.C. – Bronzed Johnny Rebs, sprinting across a Capitol lawn, charging soundlessly for the ideals of the "lost cause," have long been seen as a quaint and largely harmless part of this region's heritage. Today, doubts rise alongside pride in regard to these sculpted heroes.
A school board declines to name a new high school in Cherokee County after Georgia's Civil War governor. Floridians question why Confederate soldiers adorn a water tower. Even the word "South," in some quarters, has become a slur - a convenient repository of national guilt over the exploitation of Africans in the Cotton Belt a century and a half ago.
Beyond Confederate flags coming down from statehouses, more-mundane symbols are increasingly being questioned on the local level: in town halls, college campuses, and even cemetery committees. It's part of a deepening homogenization of Southern culture that's causing anger and resentment among many in a proud region with perhaps 65 million people who consider themselves Southerners.
Some observers see a note of irony in the growing suppression of conservative Southern memorials at a time when old Confederate values like militarism, chivalry, gentility, and religiosity are gaining political prominence. It's a lesson, they say, in how a rebellious American region maintains its influence beneath pressure to rescind its mottoes and murals.
"The shooting war is over, but ... we're engaged in a cultural war for the heart and soul of the South and for America, too," says William Lathem, spokesman for the Southern Heritage PAC in Atlanta.
Indeed, beneath the ceaseless skirmishes over Southern symbols lurks a deeper debate over the potency and potential of a region shaped by Scots-Irish settlers who wanted a small, God-fearing government that stayed out of their lives.
Today's regional relations remind some historians of the War of 1812. New Englanders protested against the war, and it took Andrew Jackson to end it at New Orleans with a trouncing of the British by the Louisiana artillery. Witness the last presidential election, which revolved around the president's decision to invade Iraq and his muscular response to Islamist terrorism. The ideological "red-blue" borders almost perfectly traced the regional sentiments of the mid-19th century, with Ohio to this day in play.
"Why bother about this talk of separateness when you're arguably in a position - the South is - to dominate the Union as [Confederate unionist] Alexander Stephens envisioned it before the Civil War: the South in a political alliance with the West," says Jim Langcuster of Alabama, a moderate proponent of Southern heritage.
Still, even as Gambians and Swedes flock to cities like Raleigh and Birmingham, wizened black butlers still wait on gaggles of white golfers at certain exclusive clubs. And the disdain toward the South most often attributed (at least by Southerners) to "limousine liberals" is increasingly leading to action from the Florida interior to the hilltops of Georgia, most likely as a result of a massive in-migration of "those people," as Gen. Robert E. Lee called his foes.
Parents in Cherokee County, Ga., successfully urged their school board to refuse to name a new high school for Joseph E. Brown, the Confederate governor who, at the risk of his popularity, welcomed federal reform after the Civil War.
In Georgia, there's a tough fight brewing over bringing a bust of Confederate President Jefferson Davis from Jeff Davis County - where there are four Jeff Davis schools - to the Georgia Capitol.
And, in Charlotte, N.C., a decision was recently made to take down the battle flag - from a Confederate cemetery.
At old-line Southern colleges like the University of the South, regents are downplaying old Confederate-era rituals and even the word "South" so as not to scare away prospective students from up North.
"When people have a sense that things are unraveling, whether it's on the right or left, these questions come up again," says Ira Berlin, a Civil War historian at the University of Maryland.
But Southern heritage proponents are winning some skirmishes, too.
In Florida, the town of Brooksville decided not to change the image of Confederate soldiers on the water-tower logo after someone pointed out that an annual reenactment of the "Brooksville Raid" was a major tourist draw. In South Carolina, a bill is moving forward to allow the Sons of Confederate Veterans their own license plate. Seventy-two percent of Georgians want to see a referendum on bringing back the pre-2001 Cross of St. Andrew's flag across the Peach State. Stone Mountain with its 90-foot carved images of Lee, Davis, and Stonewall Jackson is still Georgia's biggest tourist draw. "Part of Southern culture is the recognition that there are things worth fighting for," says Jim Thompson, editorial page director of the Athens, Ga., Banner-Herald.
Southerners say the region's critics often take not only historical but biblical references and meanings out of context - the result, they say, of biased schooling.
It remains a highly charged debate, since perceptions of past are also a lens on the present. Most Southerners today agree that blacks are also original settlers and inheritors of the South, and deserve their equal place in civic affairs. But critics worry that some of the worst elements of the "old" South may be rising again - their suspicions fueled by a nationwide weakening of affirmative action and an ongoing resegregation of public schools, especially in the South.
The last time "Dixie" was whistled officially in the capital was probably during Ronald Reagan's first inauguration. But last year, Bush supporter Robert T. Hines shot a cannon at Arlington National Cemetery on Davis's birthday.
"The culture of the South is an expanding thing rather than a xenophobic and dwindling thing," says John Hurley, president of the Confederate Memorial Association in Washington.
_________________ Rising and falling at force ten
We twist the world
And ride the wind
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Medford, Oregon Gender: Male
sleightofhandpj wrote:
tsunami wrote:
"the potency and potential of a region shaped by Scots-Irish settlers who wanted a small, God-fearing government that stayed out of their lives".
Apparently I still agree with my ancestors.
There's the problem. You can't expect everyone in a country this big to fear your God. That's why it's better to leave God out of national/governmental affairs IMO.
_________________ Deep below the dunes I roved Past the rows, past the rows Beside the acacias freshly in bloom I sent men to their doom
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:43 am Posts: 870 Location: We chase misprinted lies.....
ElPhantasmo wrote:
sleightofhandpj wrote:
tsunami wrote:
"the potency and potential of a region shaped by Scots-Irish settlers who wanted a small, God-fearing government that stayed out of their lives".
Apparently I still agree with my ancestors.
There's the problem. You can't expect everyone in a country this big to fear your God. That's why it's better to leave God out of national/governmental affairs IMO.
Maybe I should have left out "God-fearing".
"the potency and potential of a region shaped by Scots-Irish settlers who wanted a small government that stayed out of their lives"
*Fixed
_________________ “If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” - Winston Churchill
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Medford, Oregon Gender: Male
sleightofhandpj wrote:
ElPhantasmo wrote:
sleightofhandpj wrote:
tsunami wrote:
"the potency and potential of a region shaped by Scots-Irish settlers who wanted a small, God-fearing government that stayed out of their lives".
Apparently I still agree with my ancestors.
There's the problem. You can't expect everyone in a country this big to fear your God. That's why it's better to leave God out of national/governmental affairs IMO.
Maybe I should have left out "God-fearing".
"the potency and potential of a region shaped by Scots-Irish settlers who wanted a small government that stayed out of their lives"
*Fixed
Count me in. Sounds perfect. The question is, how do we take a government that is so large and out of control and make it small again?
_________________ Deep below the dunes I roved Past the rows, past the rows Beside the acacias freshly in bloom I sent men to their doom
It remains a highly charged debate, since perceptions of past are also a lens on the present. Most Southerners today agree that blacks are also original settlers and inheritors of the South, and deserve their equal place in civic affairs. But critics worry that some of the worst elements of the "old" South may be rising again - their suspicions fueled by a nationwide weakening of affirmative action and an ongoing resegregation of public schools, especially in the South.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
Cartman wrote:
As someone who lives in the South, I hate the damn South.
Agreed.
I'm kind of suprised this controversy comes out of Raleigh. When I moved down here, I visited the NC History Museum and laughed at how apologetic they were about the Civil War. There was a recording on one of the displays like this, "We didn't start that war. We were the last state to succeed. Virginia started it all, and we were kinda stuck in the middle. We wanted to free our slaves. Hell, we wanted white people to be slaves, but what were we going to do? We were surrounded, and Virginia was buying a lot of our tobacco. Actually, we don't want to talk about tobacco either. Did you know that Krispy Kreme originated in North Carolina." The recording kind of went downhill form there.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
PJDoll wrote:
tsunami wrote:
It remains a highly charged debate, since perceptions of past are also a lens on the present. Most Southerners today agree that blacks are also original settlers and inheritors of the South, and deserve their equal place in civic affairs. But critics worry that some of the worst elements of the "old" South may be rising again - their suspicions fueled by a nationwide weakening of affirmative action and an ongoing resegregation of public schools, especially in the South.
Anyone have any information on this?
I know that Charlotte is still fighting over a bussing issue stemming from Brown vs. Board of Ed (1954). I don't know about resegregation. It might have to do w/ a movement among the African-American community to maintain traditionally black-schools, but that's at the college leve, I thought.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:40 pm Posts: 746 Location: Tampa
The South freakin' rokks!
So if you live in the South, but don't like the South...then why not move? I'd be a little hard pressed to stay in a place I didn't like. Save some money and jam out.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:17 pm Posts: 13551 Location: is a jerk in wyoming Gender: Female
turkey sub jr. wrote:
The South freakin' rokks!
So if you live in the South, but don't like the South...then why not move? I'd be a little hard pressed to stay in a place I didn't like. Save some money and jam out.
Maybe there a lot of people who live in the south and feel it 'rokks' too, they just don't like the cultural problems associated with the south? In those cases, moving doesn't help solve the problems that exist, it would in fact, make it worse by removing diversity of opinion.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
PJDoll wrote:
tsunami wrote:
It remains a highly charged debate, since perceptions of past are also a lens on the present. Most Southerners today agree that blacks are also original settlers and inheritors of the South, and deserve their equal place in civic affairs. But critics worry that some of the worst elements of the "old" South may be rising again - their suspicions fueled by a nationwide weakening of affirmative action and an ongoing resegregation of public schools, especially in the South.
Anyone have any information on this?
It is not so much an active segregation that is taking place but a move back towards neighborhood schools, which incidentally, is happening all over the country. The problem with this is that while forced school segregation may not have solved a lot of the problems it was intended to solve, few other things have solved them either. So the "neighborhoods" that will be the centers of teh neighborhood schools are still deeply segregated. And since school funding is still primarily based on local property tax rates in most places, the poorer neighborhoods will tend to have poorer schools, and a disproportionate number of the poorer districts are predominantly black or other minority populated.
--PunkDavid
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
It remains a highly charged debate, since perceptions of past are also a lens on the present. Most Southerners today agree that blacks are also original settlers and inheritors of the South, and deserve their equal place in civic affairs. But critics worry that some of the worst elements of the "old" South may be rising again - their suspicions fueled by a nationwide weakening of affirmative action and an ongoing resegregation of public schools, especially in the South.
Anyone have any information on this?
It is not so much an active segregation that is taking place but a move back towards neighborhood schools, which incidentally, is happening all over the country. The problem with this is that while forced school segregation may not have solved a lot of the problems it was intended to solve, few other things have solved them either. So the "neighborhoods" that will be the centers of teh neighborhood schools are still deeply segregated. And since school funding is still primarily based on local property tax rates in most places, the poorer neighborhoods will tend to have poorer schools, and a disproportionate number of the poorer districts are predominantly black or other minority populated.
--PunkDavid
That's what I thought they were talking about. On that issue:
I don't really understand the whole "poorer neighborhood poorer school" issue. The city could easily divide the funds collected evenly to each school in the city and not divide it based on areas of collection. This could be achieved without putting some children on a bus for a 1/2 hour each way when there is a school a block from their home.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 20537 Location: The City Of Trees
PJDoll wrote:
I don't really understand the whole "poorer neighborhood poorer school" issue. The city could easily divide the funds collected evenly to each school in the city and not divide it based on areas of collection. This could be achieved without putting some children on a bus for a 1/2 hour each way when there is a school a block from their home.
Makes sense to me. Too bad the gov't rarely makes any sense.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:53 am Posts: 4470 Location: Knoxville, TN Gender: Male
Green Habit wrote:
PJDoll wrote:
I don't really understand the whole "poorer neighborhood poorer school" issue. The city could easily divide the funds collected evenly to each school in the city and not divide it based on areas of collection. This could be achieved without putting some children on a bus for a 1/2 hour each way when there is a school a block from their home.
Makes sense to me. Too bad the gov't rarely makes any sense.
It does make sense. The problem is the parents bitch about paying taxes and it should benefit their student not the student 20 miles away. Even distribution of tax money? What next? Feed and Shelter the homeless? Ridiculous.
I don't really understand the whole "poorer neighborhood poorer school" issue. The city could easily divide the funds collected evenly to each school in the city and not divide it based on areas of collection. This could be achieved without putting some children on a bus for a 1/2 hour each way when there is a school a block from their home.
Makes sense to me. Too bad the gov't rarely makes any sense.
It does make sense. The problem is the parents bitch about paying taxes and it should benefit their student not the student 20 miles away. Even distribution of tax money? What next? Feed and Shelter the homeless? Ridiculous.
True, but what is the difference between that and taking a child from a wealthy family and busing them to another (poorer) school?
Either way, there is a shift happening, but by only shifting money you aren't sending kids all over creation.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
Stop making sense, all of you. You're starting to sound like communists, or worse, liberals.
School taxes should be evenly distributed per student on a state level at the minimum, and partially at the federal level if you want even truer equity.
But, weren't we talking about the South?
--PunkDavid
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
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