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Why do you believe in God?
a. the world, this universe, is too perfect and too complex to have merely "happened." 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
b. i believe ancient texts (the bible, qu'ran or other) provide evidence of a diety. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
c. believing in god makes me happy, and provides me meaning in life, so i choose to believe. 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
d. i believe in god because i have experienced him, personally. we have spoken, he has talked to me, i have been in his presence. 7%  7%  [ 5 ]
e. i believe in god because i have experienced miracles that could only have been performed by god. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
f. i believe there is "just something else." 26%  26%  [ 17 ]
g. i don't. 59%  59%  [ 38 ]
Total votes : 64
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 Post subject: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:09 am 
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mods, i'd love to get a poll here.

a. the world, the universe is too perfect and too complex to have merely "happened."
b. i believe ancient texts (the bible, qu'ran or other) provide evidence of a diety.
c. believing in god makes me happy, and provides me meaning in life, so i choose to believe.
d. i believe in god because i have experienced him, personally. we have spoken, he has talked to me, i have been in his presence.
e. i believe in god because i have experienced miracles that could only have been performed by god.
f. i believe there is "just something else."
g. i don't.

as a side question, if you do indeed believe in god, do you believe god to be a mere starter, or designer, or god to be of some sort that he gets involved in daily affairs of humans?

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:18 am 
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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:18 am 
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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:20 am 
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i believe a
although it's a belief with overtones of agnosticism.

and i believe he was only a starter/creator of the universe, but has since left it be(at least in the living world)

i guess there's a bit of c involved, in that it's a comforting thought to believe in something bigger and that someday i will be able to see my family again. but that idea of perfect harmony/nirvana/heaven is definitely too big and abstract for me(and i think anyone else, but that's just my opinion) to get my head around.

d made me chuckle reading through it though.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:28 am 
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A and F are overlap. I said F but I'm agnostic.

Truthfully, I just don't care.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:01 am 
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given2trade wrote:
A and F are overlap. I said F but I'm agnostic.


not quite. A posits a designer, a god. B only mentions "something else" -- there are people who believe in multiple dimensions, and some other pretty crazy stuff. i know people who don't believe in a god, but do believe there is something more than this.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:25 am 
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I probably shouldn't say what I think about answers A through E.


It never ceases to amaze me how you endlessly try to discover some rationale behind what is ultimately and inexplicably irrational, ceebs. Perhaps more interesting is the method you use. Where most would try to analyze the brain, behavioral patterns, anything that could point to a biological reason, you search for the answer within their own rationalizations.

I don't think you will find it. But it is probably good for you to satisfy your desire to ask the questions.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:07 am 
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e. i believe in god because i have experienced miracles that could only have been performed by god.

i dont know if i would call them miracles, but i have experienced a couple things that have assuaged all doubt in my mind. but results are not typical


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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:07 pm 
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G.
c is the only one I can excuse..it doesn't pretend to logic at least...as long as they don't bother me with it.

you should add another option:
h. because my parents told me so

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:02 pm 
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I think for a lot of people, it's belief for the sake of belief. In order to understand God you have to suspend logic and reason to a certain degree and put your faith in a higher power. Searching for empirical evidence will only lead to more questions.
Think of Kevin's sig "Some things have to be believed to be seen."
You can't understand people's faith because you have not taken that leap of faith and you are too caught up in reason.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I just think you'll never understand why people believe if you don't understand what it means to believe.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:06 pm 
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dscans wrote:
In order to understand God you have to suspend logic and reason to a certain degree and put your faith in a higher power.

But why are people willing to do this? Are the overriding factors biological, cultural, familial? Why did Kant feel the need to "prove" that God exists when all previous proofs failed his own rational scrutiny?

I thought that this article was a good read:

Just over a year ago I told a lie. In print. In this magazine. I was one of those asked by The Spectator last Christmas whether I believed in the virgin birth. Since it had always seemed to me that if you believed in God a ‘pick and mix’ approach to the central tenets of the faith was pointless, I said ‘yes’. But in fact I felt ‘no’. It wasn’t that I had been wrestling over the doctrine of the incarnation, I simply felt that if I didn’t believe in the virgin birth, I would not believe in God. The truth is I didn’t and don’t. The guilt has been lingering since. This is my atheist mea culpa.

Many people hold on to belief as an unquestioned part of their make-up. They never have to confront the source of their belief, and as long as nothing actively pushes them into addressing it, they keep it as something which rarely does much harm and might actually do some good. I have been an Anglican since birth — and not just a cultural Anglican but at times (rarest of things) a real, worshipping, believing Anglican. Like a lot of believers, I knew that there were parts of my belief that wouldn’t stand up to analysis. But that was fine. I didn’t need to analyse them. I only lost faith when I was forced to.


http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine ... eist.thtml


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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:09 pm 
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dscans wrote:
I think for a lot of people, it's belief for the sake of belief. In order to understand God you have to suspend logic and reason to a certain degree and put your faith in a higher power. Searching for empirical evidence will only lead to more questions.
Think of Kevin's sig "Some things have to be believed to be seen."
You can't understand people's faith because you have not taken that leap of faith and you are too caught up in reason.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I just think you'll never understand why people believe if you don't understand what it means to believe.

Questions are good.. questions are what makes us human actually.

And belief presupposes some questions anyway (why? where from?)..with a lazy answer.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:14 pm 
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Some of these posts are severely condescending. Its like (some of) you guys can't see that you're doing exactly what you accuse religious fanatics of: blindly believing their own way and mocking anyone who disagrees. Shame.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:26 pm 
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corduroy_blazer wrote:
given2trade wrote:
A and F are overlap. I said F but I'm agnostic.


not quite. A posits a designer, a god. B only mentions "something else" -- there are people who believe in multiple dimensions, and some other pretty crazy stuff. i know people who don't believe in a god, but do believe there is something more than this.

i dunno, i still think they overlap. at least for my beliefs

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:39 pm 
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Quote:
I only lost faith when I was forced to.


This bit right here really hits home.


There's no singular option available to me in this poll! Because as I go through life on a daily basis, there are times where I could choose any one of those between a - g.

At the particularly low points when I'm nearly ready to commit to g, I'm reminded via e that a is true.

I think that's pretty much what faith is. A function consisting of all of those variables.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:49 pm 
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listen, I'm not here as a spokesperson for the faithful. I'm far from it. I am one of the most skeptical people you will find.
I'm just trying to understand what Ceebs is trying to do. It seems as if he reads atheist literature and then comes here for the theist argument. I don't know why.
I read the literature of Christians (mostly Merton) to understand their point of view. And the reasons I have outlined are why I think Ceebs is on a dead-end hunt to understanding faith. He's too rooted in logic.
Now I don't agree with abandoning logic and reason. I'm just trying to open him up to a new point of view.
I guess the idea is that reasoning, empirical evidence, etc. are found within the realm of man, which is flawed. So to know God, you need to step outside that realm.
I'm probably not explaining this well, so here's a quote from Merton.
Quote:
Faith, without depending on reason for the slightest shred of justification, never contradicts reason and remains ever reasonable. Faith does not destroy reason, but fulfills it. Nevertheless, there must always remain a delicate balance between the two. Two extremes are to be avoided; credulity and skepticism; superstition and rationalism.
If this balance is upset, if man relies too much on his five senses and on his reason when faith should be his teacher, then he enters into illusion. Or when, in defiance of reason, he gives the assent of his faith to a fallible authority, then too he falls into illusion. Reason is in fact the path to faith, and faith takes over when reason can say no more

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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:28 pm 
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Thanks for the Merton quote. I find the pairings very interesting.
Quote:
Faith does not destroy reason, but fulfills it. Nevertheless, there must always remain a delicate balance between the two. Two extremes are to be avoided; credulity and skepticism; superstition and rationalism.


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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:41 pm 
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dscans wrote:
listen, I'm not here as a spokesperson for the faithful. I'm far from it. I am one of the most skeptical people you will find.
I'm just trying to understand what Ceebs is trying to do. It seems as if he reads atheist literature and then comes here for the theist argument. I don't know why.
I read the literature of Christians (mostly Merton) to understand their point of view. And the reasons I have outlined are why I think Ceebs is on a dead-end hunt to understanding faith. He's too rooted in logic.
Now I don't agree with abandoning logic and reason. I'm just trying to open him up to a new point of view.
I guess the idea is that reasoning, empirical evidence, etc. are found within the realm of man, which is flawed. So to know God, you need to step outside that realm.
I'm probably not explaining this well, so here's a quote from Merton.
Quote:
Faith, without depending on reason for the slightest shred of justification, never contradicts reason and remains ever reasonable. Faith does not destroy reason, but fulfills it. Nevertheless, there must always remain a delicate balance between the two. Two extremes are to be avoided; credulity and skepticism; superstition and rationalism.
If this balance is upset, if man relies too much on his five senses and on his reason when faith should be his teacher, then he enters into illusion. Or when, in defiance of reason, he gives the assent of his faith to a fallible authority, then too he falls into illusion. Reason is in fact the path to faith, and faith takes over when reason can say no more

he explains it even less well!
faith takes over when you can't be bothered to find reason anymore, but the fact you can't find a reasonable explanation to something doesn't mean god is the answer.. just that you haven't fund the explanation and should keep looking for it.
And even some questions are moot and therefore might have no answer (God or otherwise)..like 'what's after death?' or 'why are we here?' (actually they're both the same really).. meaning is not intrinsic to life.
That might make people uncomfortable, but that's not a reason to think it's not true.

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2009 was a great year for PJ gigs
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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:44 pm 
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its not definitive, but this is as "technical" as god proofs get, and its still largely faith-based. if you've never read it before ceebs, i think youll like it... that is, if you're legitimately open to the other side, which im beginning to doubt. aquinas:

Quote:
The first and plainest is the method that proceeds from the point of view of motion. It is certain and in accord with experience, that things on earth undergo change. Now, everything that is moved is moved by something; nothing, indeed, is changed, except it is changed to something which it is in potentiality. Moreover, anything moves in accordance with something actually existing; change itself, is nothing else than to bring forth something from potentiality into actuality. Now, nothing can be brought from potentiality to actual existence except through something actually existing: thus heat in action, as fire, makes fire-wood, which is hot in potentiality, to be hot actually, and through this process, changes itself. The same thing cannot at the same time be actually and potentially the same thing, but only in regard to different things. What is actually hot cannot be at the same time potentially hot, but it is possible for it at the same time to be potentially cold. It is impossible, then, that anything should be both mover and the thing moved, in regard to the same thing and in the same way, or that it should move itself. Everything, therefore, is moved by something else. If, then, that by which it is moved, is also moved, this must be moved by something still different, and this, again, by something else. But this process cannot go on to infinity because there would not be any first mover, nor, because of this fact, anything else in motion, as the succeeding things would not move except because of what is moved by the first mover, just as a stick is not moved except through what is moved from the hand. Therefore it is necessary to go back to some first mover, which is itself moved by nothing---and this all men know as God.

The second proof is from the nature of the efficient cause. We find in our experience that there is a chain of causes: nor is it found possible for anything to be the efficient cause of itself, since it would have to exist before itself, which is impossible. Nor in the case of efficient causes can the chain go back indefinitely, because in all chains of efficient causes, the first is the cause of the middle, and these of the last, whether they be one or many. If the cause is removed, the effect is removed. Hence if there is not a first cause, there will not be a last, nor a middle. But if the chain were to go back infinitely, there would be no first cause, and thus no ultimate effect, nor middle causes, which is admittedly false. Hence we must presuppose some first efficient cause---which all call God.

The third proof is taken from the natures of the merely possible and necessary. We find that certain things either may or may not exist, since they are found to come into being and be destroyed, and in consequence potentially, either existent or non-existent. But it is impossible for all things that are of this character to exist eternally, because what may not exist, at length will not. If, then, all things were merely possible (mere accidents), eventually nothing among things would exist. If this is true, even now there would be nothing, because what does not exist, does not take its beginning except through something that does exist. If then nothing existed, it would be impossible for anything to begin, and there would now be nothing existing, which is admittedly false. Hence not all things are mere accidents, but there must be one necessarily existing being. Now every necessary thing either has a cause of its necessary existence, or has not. In the case of necessary things that have a cause for their necessary existence, the chain of causes cannot go back infinitely, just as not in the case of efficient causes, as proved. Hence there must be presupposed something necessarily existing through its own nature, not having a cause elsewhere but being itself the cause of the necessary existence of other things---which all call God.

The fourth proof arises from the degrees that are found in things. For there is found a greater and a less degree of goodness, truth, nobility, and the like. But more or less are terms spoken of various things as they approach in diverse ways toward something that is the greatest, just as in the case of hotter (more hot) which approaches nearer the greatest heat. There exists therefore something that is the truest, and best, and most noble, and in consequence, the greatest being. For what are the greatest truths are the greatest beings, as is said in the Metaphysics Bk. II. 2. What moreover is the greatest in its way, in another way is the cause of all things of its own kind (or genus); thus fire, which is the greatest heat, is the cause of all heat, as is said in the same book (cf. Plato and Aristotle). Therefore there exists something that is the cause of the existence of all things and of the goodness and of every perfection whatsoever---and this we call God.

The fifth proof arises from the ordering of things for we see that some things which lack reason, such as natural bodies, are operated in accordance with a plan. It appears from this that they are operated always or the more frequently in this same way the closer they follow what is the Highest; whence it is clear that they do not arrive at the result by chance but because of a purpose. The things, moreover, that do not have intelligence do not tend toward a result unless directed by some one knowing and intelligent; just as an arrow is sent by an archer. Therefore there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan---and this we call God.

In response to the first objection, then, I reply what Augustine says; that since God is entirely good, He would permit evil to exist in His works only if He were so good and omnipotent that He might bring forth good even from the evil. It therefore pertains to the infinite goodness of God that he permits evil to exist and from this brings forth good.

My reply to the second objection is that since nature is ordered in accordance with some defined purpose by the direction of some superior agent, those things that spring from nature must be dependent upon God, just as upon a first cause. Likewise, what springs from a proposition must be traceable to some higher cause which is not the human reason or will, because this is changeable and defective and everything changeable and liable to non-existence is dependent upon some unchangeable first principle that is necessarily self-existent as has been shown.


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 Post subject: Re: why do you believe in god?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Pegasus wrote:
dscans wrote:
listen, I'm not here as a spokesperson for the faithful. I'm far from it. I am one of the most skeptical people you will find.
I'm just trying to understand what Ceebs is trying to do. It seems as if he reads atheist literature and then comes here for the theist argument. I don't know why.
I read the literature of Christians (mostly Merton) to understand their point of view. And the reasons I have outlined are why I think Ceebs is on a dead-end hunt to understanding faith. He's too rooted in logic.
Now I don't agree with abandoning logic and reason. I'm just trying to open him up to a new point of view.
I guess the idea is that reasoning, empirical evidence, etc. are found within the realm of man, which is flawed. So to know God, you need to step outside that realm.
I'm probably not explaining this well, so here's a quote from Merton.
Quote:
Faith, without depending on reason for the slightest shred of justification, never contradicts reason and remains ever reasonable. Faith does not destroy reason, but fulfills it. Nevertheless, there must always remain a delicate balance between the two. Two extremes are to be avoided; credulity and skepticism; superstition and rationalism.
If this balance is upset, if man relies too much on his five senses and on his reason when faith should be his teacher, then he enters into illusion. Or when, in defiance of reason, he gives the assent of his faith to a fallible authority, then too he falls into illusion. Reason is in fact the path to faith, and faith takes over when reason can say no more

he explains it even less well!
faith takes over when you can't be bothered to find reason anymore, but the fact you can't find a reasonable explanation to something doesn't mean god is the answer.. just that you haven't fund the explanation and should keep looking for it.
And even some questions are moot and therefore might have no answer (God or otherwise)..like 'what's after death?' or 'why are we here?' (actually they're both the same really).. meaning is not intrinsic to life.
That might make people uncomfortable, but that's not a reason to think it's not true.




Here's a ponderable to try on for size:

"Does it really matter the reason why we are here?"

We're here because we are. :mrgreen:

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