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 Post subject: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:07 am 
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Apparently the Supreme Court has attempted to reconcile our nations confusion about sending someone to die at 18 years old and executing children for their actions prior to that age.

This has to reflect some sort of progress in regards to capital punishment and I for one am content. What is interesting is that not only was "national consensus" cited in the majority opinion, but international law as well. Hooray!

Justice Kennedy, who I do not normally admire, wrote the majority opinion and it included this quote which I found incredibly articulate, " When a juvenile offender commits a heinous crime, the state can exact a forfieture of some of the most basic liberties, but the state cannot extinguish his life and his potential to attain a mature understanding of his own humanity".

Here we go. Hopefully an enterprising attorney will use this ruling in a case involving a person with diminished or handicapped mental facilities next, and then we can apply that ruling to eliminating capital punishment.

(though some will thankfully be killed by vigilantes).

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:57 am 
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deathbyflannel wrote:
Apparently the Supreme Court has attempted to reconcile our nations confusion about sending someone to die at 18 years old and executing children for their actions prior to that age.


*ponders*

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:13 am 
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deathbyflannel wrote:
Hopefully an enterprising attorney will use this ruling in a case involving a person with diminished or handicapped mental facilities next, and then we can apply that ruling to eliminating capital punishment.


I know you're actually in favor of the death penalty, but I hope it does get abolished.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:47 am 
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OrpheusDescending wrote:
deathbyflannel wrote:
Hopefully an enterprising attorney will use this ruling in a case involving a person with diminished or handicapped mental facilities next, and then we can apply that ruling to eliminating capital punishment.


I know you're actually in favor of the death penalty, but I hope it does get abolished.


I am only favor of the death penalty when the decision is not arbitrary and in its current incarnation capital punishment in far from it. It is, in short, ineffective. I support the concept, I disagree with our implementation.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:39 pm 
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Quote:
Amnesty: Record rise in executions
Tuesday, April 5, 2005 Posted: 3:43 AM EDT (0743 GMT)

SYDNEY, Australia (CNN) -- Close to 4,000 people were executed worldwide in 2004, more than at nearly any other time in the last 25 years, according to human rights organization Amnesty International.

The number of new death sentences imposed by countries also hit its highest level in 10 years, it said.

"This is an alarming rise in executions and the figures uncovered from China are genuinely frightening," Amnesty International UK Director Kate Allen told Reuters news agency.

China, which recently pledged to tighten the terms under which people can be executed, put to death more people than any other country in the world.

Amnesty, which based its analysis on public reports, said that China executed at least 3400 people last year, but cautioned the total figures are "only minimum figures; the true figures are certainly higher."

"In March 2004 a delegate at the National People's Congress said that 'nearly 10,000' people are executed per year in China," Amnesty said.

The analysis found that 25 countries executed their citizens in 2004, while 7,395 people were sentenced to death in 64 countries.

The United States, which is one of the last Western nations to impose the death penalty, executed 59 people during the year, placing it fourth on Amnesty's table of executions.

Still, the number of people executed in the U.S. fell from 64 previously. Just last month, the U.S. Supreme Court outlawed the use of the death penalty against child offenders, for those who are under the age of 18 at the time of the crime.

Iran executed 159 people, placing it second, while Vietnam executed 64 people in 2004.

"As in previous years, the vast majority of executions worldwide were carried out in a tiny handful of countries. In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Vietnam and the USA," Amnesty said.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/04/05/amnesty.death/index.html

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:12 pm 
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deathbyflannel wrote:
Apparently the Supreme Court has attempted to reconcile our nations confusion about sending someone to die at 18 years old and executing children for their actions prior to that age.

This has to reflect some sort of progress in regards to capital punishment and I for one am content. What is interesting is that not only was "national consensus" cited in the majority opinion, but international law as well. Hooray!

Justice Kennedy, who I do not normally admire, wrote the majority opinion and it included this quote which I found incredibly articulate, " When a juvenile offender commits a heinous crime, the state can exact a forfieture of some of the most basic liberties, but the state cannot extinguish his life and his potential to attain a mature understanding of his own humanity".

Here we go. Hopefully an enterprising attorney will use this ruling in a case involving a person with diminished or handicapped mental facilities next, and then we can apply that ruling to eliminating capital punishment.

(though some will thankfully be killed by vigilantes).


I find it ridiculous to suggest that someone who is 18 years and one day old when they commit a crime has the mental capacity sufficient to put him or her to death while someone who is 17 years and 364 days old doesn't. Talk about arbitrary.

Also, while I believe the death penalty should be abolished in its entirety, I find it to be very dangerous when the Supreme Court establishes precedent based on national consensus. After all, there was a point in this country's history where the populace condoned doctrines of discrimination and separate but equal as well as internment camps for Japanese descendants. It becomes a very slippery slope. Judges are supposed to rule independent of what polls, politics or world leaders believe and feel. The whole point behind giving lifetime appointments to federal judges is to shield them from politics.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:22 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
I find it ridiculous to suggest that someone who is 18 years and one day old when they commit a crime has the mental capacity sufficient to put him or her to death while someone who is 17 years and 364 days old doesn't. Talk about arbitrary.


Yes, but hardly unprecedented. Your argument is also applicable to:

voting
joining the Army
drinking
smoking
driving
applying for a home loan
marrying w/o your parents' permission
renting a car
eating off the adults menu at Denny's
sitting in an exit row on the airplane
sitting in a child safety seat in the car

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:29 pm 
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I thought there was another thread on this some weeks ago discussing this change....


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:35 pm 
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just_b wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
I find it ridiculous to suggest that someone who is 18 years and one day old when they commit a crime has the mental capacity sufficient to put him or her to death while someone who is 17 years and 364 days old doesn't. Talk about arbitrary.


Yes, but hardly unprecedented. Your argument is also applicable to:

voting
joining the Army
drinking
smoking
driving
applying for a home loan
marrying w/o your parents' permission
renting a car
eating off the adults menu at Denny's
sitting in an exit row on the airplane
sitting in a child safety seat in the car


We're talking about killing people, not deciding which brand of cigarettes to buy. The arbitrary age restrictions carry a little bit more added significance. I doubt victims' families would agree the comparison is applicable. The day's difference between age has more ramifications.


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:42 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
just_b wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
I find it ridiculous to suggest that someone who is 18 years and one day old when they commit a crime has the mental capacity sufficient to put him or her to death while someone who is 17 years and 364 days old doesn't. Talk about arbitrary.


Yes, but hardly unprecedented. Your argument is also applicable to:

voting
joining the Army
drinking
smoking
driving
applying for a home loan
marrying w/o your parents' permission
renting a car
eating off the adults menu at Denny's
sitting in an exit row on the airplane
sitting in a child safety seat in the car


We're talking about killing people, not deciding which brand of cigarettes to buy. The arbitrary age restrictions carry a little bit more added significance. I doubt victims' families would agree the comparison is applicable. The day's difference between age has more ramifications.


ar·bi·trar·y
adj.

1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle.

I think it is far more arbitrary for a trial court to decide whether or not someone can be tried as an adult without specific guidelines.

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 Post subject: Re: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:55 pm 
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deathbyflannel wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
just_b wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
I find it ridiculous to suggest that someone who is 18 years and one day old when they commit a crime has the mental capacity sufficient to put him or her to death while someone who is 17 years and 364 days old doesn't. Talk about arbitrary.


Yes, but hardly unprecedented. Your argument is also applicable to:

voting
joining the Army
drinking
smoking
driving
applying for a home loan
marrying w/o your parents' permission
renting a car
eating off the adults menu at Denny's
sitting in an exit row on the airplane
sitting in a child safety seat in the car


We're talking about killing people, not deciding which brand of cigarettes to buy. The arbitrary age restrictions carry a little bit more added significance. I doubt victims' families would agree the comparison is applicable. The day's difference between age has more ramifications.


ar·bi·trar·y
adj.

1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle.

I think it is far more arbitrary for a trial court to decide whether or not someone can be tried as an adult without specific guidelines.


1. I've noted that the death penalty restrictions are arbitrary.
2. I think the guidelines, no matter how you fashion them, would be applied arbitrarily or be arbitrary in themselves.
3. That's why I suggest they eliminate the death penalty altogether


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 Post subject: Re: Gotta be 18 to die...again.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:28 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
That's why I suggest they eliminate the death penalty altogether


Affirmative.

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