If the goal was perpetual war, then yes. If the goal was to demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with democracy, then yes. If the goal was to weaken the United States so that a global culture (government) could rise, then yes.
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
broken iris wrote:
Rebar wrote:
So this is working out really well for us.
If the goal was perpetual war, then yes. If the goal was to demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with democracy, then yes. If the goal was to weaken the United States so that a global culture (government) could rise, then yes.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
If the goal was perpetual war, then yes. If the goal was to demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with democracy, then yes. If the goal was to weaken the United States so that a global culture (government) could rise, then yes.
I am not suggesting Islam itself is incompatible with democracy, just not as it exists amongst large swaths of the mostly uneducated, low income voting population in the ME. A "Islamic Reformation" must lead the establishment of democracy, not the other way around, or you will get codified religious fundamentalism.
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
a slightly longer, but still real quick response since i am heading off to class
Democratic transitions are messy and take time. It took the United States three iterations and a civil war, numerous riots, rebellions, bloodshed, murder, and 70+ years to work the kinks out. It is going to be even harder in an area where the secular political traditions and organizations were largely suppressed by strongmen supported by the democratic west. Democratic politics requires strong civil organizations, and in many of these countries the only game in town is currently religious ones. Of course those groups will dominate right now (either in terms of electoral politics or in terms of general social influence). They're often the only game in town. That doesn't mean that there aren't other traditions and groups that can be encouraged, developed, or built. But they're not there yet. Expecting them to be fully functioning, fully stable democracies within a year or two is nuts.
Of course it is also possible that these countries may democratically CHOOSE to be religiously conservative (as many parts of our country unfortunately choose). That doesn't make them undemocratic. It may not make them allies, and it won't make them philosophically liberal (which sucks), but I'm much more concerned about those trends and tendencies at home.
I have no idea what the third point you're making is.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
I was kind of hoping that the young web and facebook generation (that helped mobilize the Egypt protest) had some kind of influence in the political and social transgressions. I guess that's wishing too much, but will the young generations in the middle east have a more democratic outlook 20 years from now?
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
Rebar wrote:
Not if the younger arab generation associate some stupid YouTube movie with the American Government and then proceeds to riot and act stupid.
completely unlike, for instance, the way our country clearly disassociates the actions of Islamic extremists and Muslims in general.
I wasn't aware the younger arab generation was rioting as a unit, by the way.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
a slightly longer, but still real quick response since i am heading off to class
Democratic transitions are messy and take time. It took the United States three iterations and a civil war, numerous riots, rebellions, bloodshed, murder, and 70+ years to work the kinks out. It is going to be even harder in an area where the secular political traditions and organizations were largely suppressed by strongmen supported by the democratic west. Democratic politics requires strong civil organizations, and in many of these countries the only game in town is currently religious ones. Of course those groups will dominate right now (either in terms of electoral politics or in terms of general social influence). They're often the only game in town. That doesn't mean that there aren't other traditions and groups that can be encouraged, developed, or built. But they're not there yet. Expecting them to be fully functioning, fully stable democracies within a year or two is nuts.
Of course it is also possible that these countries may democratically CHOOSE to be religiously conservative (as many parts of our country unfortunately choose). That doesn't make them undemocratic. It may not make them allies, and it won't make them philosophically liberal (which sucks), but I'm much more concerned about those trends and tendencies at home.
Yeah, so you are right, I was wrong. Technically, democracy is nothing more than people voting.
Not if the younger arab generation associate some stupid YouTube movie with the American Government and then proceeds to riot and act stupid.
completely unlike, for instance, the way our country clearly disassociates the actions of Islamic extremists and Muslims in general.
This is a silly point since both can be true and not diminish the generalization Rebar made. Plus the number of ignorant Americans suicide bombing police trainees because they disagree with the government is pretty low. Hint, hint,Iraq.
stip wrote:
I wasn't aware the younger arab generation was rioting as a unit, by the way.
I wasn't aware all Americans were biased against Muslims. I mean I had hoped for it, so this is great news, I just wasn't aware.
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