I'm not condemning those who turn to some external source of what they perceive as wisdom for comfort as evil or weak. What I'm objecting to is a (selectively) literal interpretation of The Good Word to rationalize much of the evil that is done in its name. Finding comfort in the lessons of allegory - which is, after all, what the bible is - in times of struggle is common practice. The difference to me seems to be that those who seek refuge in the works of Thoreau or Steinbeck or whomever rarely take the fictional injunctions therein as being any more than precisely what they are: stories meant to be cognitively and emotionally evocative. No more, no less. It's when folks think that a work is imbued with "The Word of God" that they lose the plot and begin to ascribe to all kinds of phenomena forces that simply aren't there. Essentially, secular allegory bounds irrationality - and hence, its attendant downsides - while liturgical allegory only seems to encourage irrationality - and hence, its attendant downsides.
Thodoks, many theists have seen the Bible as allegory for thousands and thousands of years but also consider it God-breathed. The latter does not necessitate literalism and in fact taking it literally rather than allegorically can be shown in some instances to deny it as truth.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
Because God doesn't breathe, right?
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
Anon wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
thodoks wrote:
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
And @ Platy again, it's not just that they happen to be atheist. These "post 9/11, militant" atheists I speak of are cropping up everywhere and attack only the negative aspects that come out of organized religion.
What else would they attack? I'm no fan of organized religion, but why would anyone at all concerned about the human condition come out and condemn much of the charity work that goes on in the name of a particular church or faith?
Excuse my choice of words. They only address the negative aspects of religion, and choose to see nothing good. Or refuse to see anything good. I don't know. I wish I knew what they were thinking.
I don't know a single atheist who would not recognize that some good has come from religion, whether in the past or present. Seriously. And I work on the edges of what you might call the professional atheist movement. What atheists argue, at least in my experience, is that the good that results from religion can and does also result from non-religious efforts, and that, on balance, religion creates more harm than good.
Michael, in what sense or standard are you using the words "good" and "harm"? Also, if it is true that religion creates more harm than good in fact or even in theory, and if all of its good can be shared by nontheists as well, all you've done is explain why you prefer nontheism over theism, not why theism is false and nontheism attains.
In a metaphorical sense. I'll leave it to you to determine exactly what I meant.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
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Harmless wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Because God doesn't breathe, right?
Not if he doesn't exist, or does exist but is Spirit. So either way, no.
But he does have telepathic powers. Which suggests a conscious brain, no?
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
I have no idea what that means.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
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malice wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
I have no idea what that means.
it's my way of telling you there is no god, ceebs
You could have just breathed in my direction.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
A friend of mine just summed it up about as well as anyone could:
Quote:
A god who allows innocent children to die because he's in a snit over his alleged expulsion from public schools is not worthy of our worship. If this is the god of the Religious Right, they can have him. I have no interest in spending eternity with such an unethical and evil being.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
A friend of mine just summed it up about as well as anyone could:
Quote:
A god who allows innocent children to die because he's in a snit over his alleged expulsion from public schools is not worthy of our worship. If this is the god of the Religious Right, they can have him. I have no interest in spending eternity with such an unethical and evil being.
I guess the five million or so kids that starve to death each year wasn't enough to convince him?
_________________ For your sake I hope heaven and hell are really there but I wouldn't hold my breath
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
yeah but they probably chose to be born in poverty and not just move someplace with more opportunity, so they deserve it. These kids today were innocent
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
I've been really agitated today about all the violence and horrible things we subject children to. The shooting dramatizes it, but the horrified reaction we all (rightfully) had makes me wonder where this is with kids who are homeless, hungry, and all the rest.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
A friend of mine just summed it up about as well as anyone could:
Quote:
A god who allows innocent children to die because he's in a snit over his alleged expulsion from public schools is not worthy of our worship. If this is the god of the Religious Right, they can have him. I have no interest in spending eternity with such an unethical and evil being.
It seems improbable to me that a being could evolved to the state that the Christian god has supposedly evolved too and still have any interest in being worshipped.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
Man in Black wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
A friend of mine just summed it up about as well as anyone could:
Quote:
A god who allows innocent children to die because he's in a snit over his alleged expulsion from public schools is not worthy of our worship. If this is the god of the Religious Right, they can have him. I have no interest in spending eternity with such an unethical and evil being.
I guess the five million or so kids that starve to death each year wasn't enough to convince him?
It was. But he wasn't responding to that. He was responding to this:
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
stip wrote:
the horrified reaction we all (rightfully) had makes me wonder where this is with kids who are homeless, hungry, and all the rest.
I don't think it's that hard to understand. Part of it has to do with skin color and/or race, part of it location, part of it the appearance of a lack of urgency.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
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