What do you think of the trade?

Here are my discussion points:

1. Giants gave up too much.
2. Cubs were too quick to get rid of him

After last year, the Cubs should have just kept him the 8th or 7th + 8th and let somebody else fail at closing, but they didn't. His own confidence was visibly gone, and this bad situation for a relief pitcher became worse when the newly fickle (as of 11/1/03) Cubs fans turned on him.

They say the Giants traded for him now to stay in contention, rather than waiting for the deadline to approach when they'd already be out of it. However, I really doubt that they can regain the lead with one RP alone. They would have been better off sending Benitez + whoever is closing in AAA right now to Tampa Bay for Baez and eating whatever salary difference, because their SP's are weak too. Another OF would be helpful too, and...just too many holes. Why are they thinking they can compete? With Barry and Benitez out, the Padres, Diamondbacks, and even the Dodgers mostly have a better team position by position.

I wish the Cubs could hire somebody to be their manager that was an assistant coach under Bobby Cox. I watched Baseball Tonight earlier today and they made the point that Bobby Cox always will throw the top prospects in and let them sink or swim when injuries happen. Baker trots out the same .240-hitting journeymen every time and as a result, the young guys are never ready. They're then traded for a guy who had great numbers 3 years ago to someone who sees the prospects' potential, lets them play, and they succeed.

Right now, they are forced to have all young guys in the pen (with the exception of Dempster and Borowski), and they are mostly doing a fantastic job. Jason DuBois is getting better every day. Mitre is showing promise. Fontenot should have been playing almost every game that Walker was out. It's a shame that Cubs fans will probably never see most of the prospects, because Baker will never play them so they never get sent up.

i agree, but i don't think it would have been a bad decision to just leave him as the closer. it's an overrated position anyway. The Giants would be best served to make him their closer, as they don't have any reliever as good as he is. Then again, neither did the Cubs.


It's nuts because, as you say, they're pretty bad, but they're so old they almost have to win now. It's a do or die year so Sabean has to hope Bonds gets back very soon and they get lucky and make the playoffs because after this year there's not much hope for that team.


I agree with the point, but Cox hasn't been anywhere near as liberal with prospects as Baseball Tonight claims. The Braves gave Chipper, Furcal and Andruw jobs right out of the gate, but for the most part they've been conservative with the young guys. I mean, they did start Rico F. Brogna for over half a season before he realized he was jack shit and retired. But, in regards to your point, Dubois should be playing every day.


I'll never understand why Dusty Baker is worshipped by some in the baseball media.

i think Aardsma will end up being very good.

What's really sad is the # of hate mail he's gotten that started off with the
N-word

It's just a silly game (and my favorite) people.....

Davo, while I don't necessarily disagree that closers are overrated, you have to realize that for whatever reason, Hawkins isn't suited for the role, right? Soooo many blown saves.

Actually, I can tell you why - he doesn't have a lot of movement on his pitches, and doesn't have quite enough heat to blow away guys. So he's fine in the 8th inning when you're seeing bottom of the lineup guys in their 4th at-bat of the game, but pinch hitters and top of the lineup guys are going to tee off his straight-as-a-string stuff in the 9th inning.

And he was tipping his pitches.

The Cubs raped the Giants on this one IMO.

for sure.

I'll add that I'm really questioning Sabean as a GM at this point.

he's made quite a few moves that i'd question, including vizquel, alou, and trading away nathan.

I hated the Ponson deal, even if Moss and Ainsworth never amounted to anything.
Overpaying Matheny is stupid when Yorvit can handle the catching duties. They're really fucked when Alou gets hurt in the next 2 months.

i don't buy that. his ninth inning numbers last season weren't much different from everything else, except the blown saves, and that was almost exclusively in one run games. he's not eric gagne by any means, but there aren't a lot of dominant relievers in baseball. also, i doubt there is a meaningful difference on what part of the order comes up in the eighth and the ninth. but still, i don't think the difference between being a quote unquote closer and a setup guy is very large.

Explain Octavio Dotel's dominance as a setup man and lackluster performance as a closer.

I think he's had elbow problems for starters. He switched leagues, which normally adds about a third of a run to an ERA.

anyway, i'm not sure he was lackluster last year. he had a rough start but was excellent in the second half, with an ERA under 3. This season he's had two bad outings, both against the best hitting team in baseball and with a bad elbow.

He was probably just lucky...

The deals lately have not worked out well for sure. Biggest flop was losing Nathan for that shitbag Pyrzinski. That burned me up. The Giants also tend to overpay ther players which leaves them less $ to go out and get someone else if they are in trouble. But I wouldnt discount Sabean just yet. The Giants have been a force in the NL West for a while now, and a big reason for that is Sabean.

And I also expect several more moves here in the near future. They will try and add a bigger left handed bat and maybe another bullpen arm.

The thing I can't figure out is how the Cubs didn't do their homework about LaTroy's time with the Twins. He sucked as a closer, and exceled as a set-up guy. I don't think it had as much to do with his pitches as his fragile psyche. Seriously, the guy seemed to implode under any kind of pressure in the 9th, but in the 7th and 8th he did fine because he knew Eddie was coming in later to take care of business.

The thing is, the Cubs didn't bring Tatoya in to be a closer -- they brought him up as a set-up man. When everyone and their mother got injured last year, they really had no choice but to have him close games. If you think Hawkins' psyche is messed up, Kyle Farnsworth (who they tried in the closer role) was even worse.

In all fairness to Hawkins, the Cubs didn't necessarily do Hawkins any favors by insisting he close games when Hawkins went on record as saying he wasn't the right man for the job. Then again, Hawkins' confidence was so shaken at the end that the couldn't even pitch as a set-up man.

What's the over/under on Jerome Williams going down with elbow problems after being overused by Dusty?

20 games