Reading the Abortion thread got me thinking, the pro-lifers insist that an embryo is a human because it comes from a human, and therefore it would be murder to abort. The Pro-choicers say that its a woman's right to decide what goes in and comes out. Now, we've all heard about the "Hobbits" they've found in the Flores Island, but what are they? Are they animals since they aren't as advanced as we are, or are they considered to be human worthy? This article from the BBC wraps it all up...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3964579.stm

Eton or the zoo?


By Desmond Morris
Author and anthropologist


The discovery of a new species of human poses exciting questions about who we are. How would we treat this close relative if one were found alive today?
Every time an intrepid anthropologist discovers an old tooth or part of a jawbone that might possibly have come from one of our ancient ancestors, there is a flurry of excitement.

Before long a whole skull, then a whole body and finally a whole human society has been deduced from this tiny fragment.


A male Homo floresiensis may have looked something like this (Image: National Geographic)

We are so desperate to know where we came from that this game of inventing the past has been played over and over again.

The truth, if we are honest, is that there still remains a huge gap in our knowledge of what happened between the time of our remote ancestors and our more recent ones.

What occurred in that "great gap", several million years ago, is anybody's guess - and guesses there have been aplenty.

But the new discovery of a tiny, 3ft tall, flat-faced, bipedal "ape-man" on the Indonesian island of Flores is rather different.

Here, the skeletal remains are not only much more detailed, but they are found in caves along with delicate stone tools and evidence of fire-making and the hunting of large game.

What is more, these hunters existed as recently as 12,000 years ago and, who knows, living groups of them may still be lingering on in odd corners even today.

This is shattering news and will create fascinating problems for both political and religious leaders.

Pet cemetery?

Suppose for a moment that a living tribe of these beings is discovered, how should they be treated?

Are they merely advanced apes, or are they miniature humans?

If an explorer brought back one of their infants to study, would you put him down for Eton or the Zoo?


A cast of the 18,000-year-old 'Hobbit's' skull

If he died, would he be buried in consecrated ground or a pet cemetery?

His very existence among us would make us question all over again, what it is to be human.

We are not used to this because our ancestors successfully killed off all our close relatives.

This has created a chasm between us and the other animals, a chasm so big that religion went as far as to say that we are not even related to them. Humans have souls and they do not.

Darwin put a stop to this nonsense with his theory of evolution, but amazingly the blindingly obvious truth he discovered is still resisted by large sections of the human population.

They stubbornly continue to insist that we are some kind of special creation.

The arrival of "Mini-Man" is going to give them nightmares.

How can he be "semi-special"? That won't make sense. He can't very well have a semi-soul.

So Mini-Man might just be the evolutionary jewel that, once and for all, sets human beings firmly in the animal kingdom, where scientifically they belong.

Experimental cages

A great deal will depend on what happens when we first meet living examples of this new species.

If, when we greet them, they go OOARGH, OOARGH, like chimps, they will doubtless be classified as rather advanced apes.

In theory, the existence of Mini-Man should destroy religion, but I can already hear the fanatics claiming that he has been put on earth by the Devil


And the poor things may even end up in experimental cages. They would have no more rights than the chimpanzees do to this day.

If on the other hand we discover that they have some kind of spoken language and we can learn that language, or alternatively they can learn ours, there we are into a whole new ball-game.

When it comes down to it, being able to talk is really what defines humanity.

If Mini-Man talks, then, let's face it, there are two species of human beings on this planet and not one, as we always thought.

If you shot a Mini-Man it would be murder. If you cooked one and ate it, it would be cannibalism. If you experimented on one it would be torture.

Test of faith

Personally, I long to be told that he can talk.

It will make him a much more effective bridge between us and the apes, forcing religions to re-examine many of their basic beliefs.


Flores can expect to host teams of scientists eager to learn more

In theory, the existence of Mini-Man should destroy religion, but I can already hear the fanatics claiming that he has been put on earth by the Devil simply to test our faith.

Which brings up an even more intriguing question: does Mini-Man perform special burial rituals and does he therefore believe in an afterlife?

This is something that field workers should be able to discover even without encountering a living tribe.

If the island of Flores is not quickly awash with teams of eager investigators I shall be very surprised, and I can't wait to hear the results of their explorations.

This is from a Srila Prabhupada book:

Coming Back: The Science Of Reincarnation page. 129;

"7. Krishna conscious persons should not engage in illicit sex, i.e. sex outside of marriage or sex not for the purpose of conceiving a child. It should also be noted that abortion carries a special karmic reaction -- those who participate in killing unborn children may be placed in the womb of a mother who chooses abortion and themselves be slaughtered in the same horrible way. But if one agrees to no longer commit such sinful acts, one can become freed from karmic reaction by in-offensive devotional chanting of the holy names of God."

I really don't see why people of faith fear evolution.

It is perfectly possible and acceptable to both believe in God and evolution, even to the extent that it was all put forth by such a God.

The only explanation I can see for their fear is the fear of losing members and money and NOT the fear of losing God.

I believe in both myself.

Exactly, we as humans in fact evolve everyday. You are not a baby your whole life, you grow up and get old. It's simply a fact of life.

I've gotten into plenty of arguments with religious ultraconservatives with this one. :p