Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:49 am Posts: 1496 Location: Tokyo Zombie Gender: Male
I got this e-mail from my sister today, and thought it could be a good discussion starter:
Quote:
This is the simplest explanation of how taxes and tax cuts in this country work that I have ever read:
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay $1. The sixth would pay $3. The seventh $7. The eighth $12. The ninth $18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59. So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."
So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being "paid" to eat their meal.
So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings) The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings) The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings) The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings) The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings) The tenth now paid $49 instead $59 (16% savings)
Each of the six was better off than before and the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. "But he got $10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
Something about this doesn't seem quite right. Any help?
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:47 pm Posts: 9282 Location: Atlanta Gender: Male
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.
Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho. The middle class need someone to work for.
Last edited by Electromatic on Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 20537 Location: The City Of Trees
Electromatic wrote:
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.
Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho.
Plenty of Californians moving here, but how are you defining "wealthy"?
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
Electromatic wrote:
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.
Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho.
Yeah, I guess there's always more poor people to exploit in another state.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:47 pm Posts: 9282 Location: Atlanta Gender: Male
Green Habit wrote:
Electromatic wrote:
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.
Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho.
Plenty of Californians moving here, but how are you defining "wealthy"?
To be honest I don't really have a good definition for wealthy. I guess in this case I would say those that flee heavy tax burden. They get to keep more of their own money in Idaho.
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:47 pm Posts: 9282 Location: Atlanta Gender: Male
B wrote:
Electromatic wrote:
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.
Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho.
Yeah, I guess there's always more poor people to exploit in another state.
I worked plenty of crappy low wage jobs and didn't feel exploited. Why does getting an education and applying it automatically equate to exploiting people?
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
I'm thinking more like Wal-Marts paying workers shit, not giving health insurance, and firing workers for organizing. If those workers don't think they're being exploited, they're wrong.
But, back to the analogy. Why does each guy get a different percentage back? Why don't they all get their meals dropped by 20% (the amount of the windfall)?
Also, no one that pays no taxes bitches that they're overly burdened.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:49 am Posts: 1496 Location: Tokyo Zombie Gender: Male
B wrote:
I'm thinking more like Wal-Marts paying workers shit, not giving health insurance, and firing workers for organizing. If those workers don't think they're being exploited, they're wrong.
But, back to the analogy. Why does each guy get a different percentage back? Why don't they all get their meals dropped by 20% (the amount of the windfall)?
Also, no one that pays no taxes bitches that they're overly burdened.
But then everyone would complain more by the logic of the article. the 10th man is getting an even bigger break and everyone else less.
If this is really how tax breaks work in the US then I'd have to say that I might be wrong about complaining about tax breaks for the rich. If this is how it works of course.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
the verb to trust wrote:
If this is really how tax breaks work in the US then I'd have to say that I might be wrong about complaining about tax breaks for the rich. If this is how it works of course.
Is this really how the tax code works?
Of course, getting a smaller percentage of the cut doesn't necessarily mean that the rich guy is paying a greater percentage of his income than the other dudes. I don't think the rich is this country ever come close to paying the percentage of their income that poorer or middle class people pay.
If anyone thinks I'm wrong. I don't care. If you say you know the tax code and I'm wrong... whatever, you're lying.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:58 am Posts: 2105 Location: Austin
the verb to trust wrote:
I got this e-mail from my sister today, and thought it could be a good discussion starter:
Quote:
This is the simplest explanation of how taxes and tax cuts in this country work that I have ever read:
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay $1. The sixth would pay $3. The seventh $7. The eighth $12. The ninth $18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59. So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."
So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being "paid" to eat their meal.
So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings) The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings) The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings) The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings) The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings) The tenth now paid $49 instead $59 (16% savings)
Each of the six was better off than before and the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. "But he got $10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
Something about this doesn't seem quite right. Any help?
Yeah it is missing some stuff. 1-4 also get a tip at the end of the night, food stamps, free education, a loan to attend college, a better chance at loans from the state and federal government, unemployment checks, free public transporation, welfare and a lap dance from Davey Jones all payed for by 5-10.
Sorry, I missed out on a business loan and I'm taking it out on customers 1-4.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
C4Lukin wrote:
Yeah it is missing some stuff. 1-4 also get a tip at the end of the night, food stamps, free education, a loan to attend college, a better chance at loans from the state and federal government, unemployment checks, free public transporation, welfare and a lap dance from Davey Jones all payed for by 5-10.
Sorry, I missed out on a business loan and I'm taking it out on customers 1-4.
Alright, smarty-pants, you have to put that into restaurant terms. No one gets a college loan at dinner. No smashing reality into the analogy!!!
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
I'm thinking more like Wal-Marts paying workers shit, not giving health insurance, and firing workers for organizing. If those workers don't think they're being exploited, they're wrong.
It's ironic that the people mostly likely to shop at walmart are those mostly likely to become jobless or "exploited" (not my view of it) by Walmart.
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money
I think the richest depends on teh employment of the middle 4, not the poorest 4. Unless they sell guns or booze.
B wrote:
Also, no one that pays no taxes bitches that they're overly burdened.
That's true. It's the so called advocates for the poor that complain about how the poor are burdened with taxes. But it's usually consumption taxes.
verb to trust wrote:
If this is really how tax breaks work in the US then I'd have to say that I might be wrong about complaining about tax breaks for the rich.
It is, but the poor have something called the "earned income tax credit". They actaully do get paid a refund without putting anything in.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:58 am Posts: 2105 Location: Austin
B wrote:
C4Lukin wrote:
Yeah it is missing some stuff. 1-4 also get a tip at the end of the night, food stamps, free education, a loan to attend college, a better chance at loans from the state and federal government, unemployment checks, free public transporation, welfare and a lap dance from Davey Jones all payed for by 5-10.
Sorry, I missed out on a business loan and I'm taking it out on customers 1-4.
Alright, smarty-pants, you have to put that into restaurant terms. No one gets a college loan at dinner. No smashing reality into the analogy!!!
Ok, customers 1-4 get the tip left for the waiter at the end of the night, a free meal on their next visit, a reading of the menu by the famous hot chick of their choice, a voucher for 4 years of free meals if they promise to pay it back, a free taxi home after they get sloshed, three chocolate cakes for every kid they have, a lap dance from Davey Jones all payed for by 5-10.
Sorry, I missed out on a lap dance from Davey Jones and I'm taking it out on customers 1-4.
If this is really how tax breaks work in the US then I'd have to say that I might be wrong about complaining about tax breaks for the rich. If this is how it works of course.
Is this really how the tax code works?
Of course, getting a smaller percentage of the cut doesn't necessarily mean that the rich guy is paying a greater percentage of his income than the other dudes. I don't think the rich is this country ever come close to paying the percentage of their income that poorer or middle class people pay.
If anyone thinks I'm wrong. I don't care. If you say you know the tax code and I'm wrong... whatever, you're lying.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
PJDoll wrote:
B wrote:
If anyone thinks I'm wrong. I don't care. If you say you know the tax code and I'm wrong... whatever, you're lying.
I know the tax code, and yes, you're wrong.
Whatever! You're lying.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Last edited by ¡B! on Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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