Ok, where do you draw the line?

It's clear that a lot of us here are offended by athletes using anabolic steroids. But let me ask those of you, where and how do you draw the line on what supplements are OK and which are not?

Steroids bad. How about a sprinter having a couple espressos before a race? Is that an abomination? How about MetRX? I mean, that is engineered food, not really natural there. Creatine? Wheat germ?

Seriously, the use of supplements is "tainting" nearly every sport in the world right now. From cycling to baseball to snowboarding there is endless energy spent on the idea of "unfair advantages". Well, where's the line? What is ok and what is not?

i forgot who said it, but "i think that they should be able to shoot up right there in the batter's box"

i dont know much about this stuff as I dont do suppliments or steroids, but Ive been told that the stuff you buy at GNC is usually so little a dose that it really has no affect on a person, unless they take a shitload of whatever it is. dont know if thats true.

I don't have a problem with supplements at all, up to and including steroids. The person still has to hit, throw, and catch the ball, steroids don't do that for them. They still have to put the time in the gym, steroids don't magically grow muscles for them. They're almost all making millions of dollars (even the ones that aren't are very well off), so they should all be able to access the same stuff, so it's not an issue of parity. Some of it is riskier than others, but then again, people can die working in coal mines and yet they still do it because the pay is good or they can't do anything else. And old people take all kinds of zany risky medicines to improve their vigor or to stay alive, so I don't see how the purity of the game is harmed because Mark McGwire is taking steroids and David Eckstein is only drinking Red Bull and Gatorade. Even without steroids, McGwire has an inherent physical advantage over Eckstein, yet nobody splits the majors off based on size like they do wrestling!

Corked bats, sandpaper/vaseline in the glove, that's the stuff I view as cheating. Anything that assists you in making your body stronger, no, it's not...not in my mind.

I'm with you.

i'm totally against both of you

So where do you draw the line at what's ok and what is not ok? That was the intention of the thread. You're obviously against steroids, but are you against protein shakes, caffeine, creatine, ephedra? What? Why?

I just want a level playing field, an athlete should not have an advantage over another by using steroids. They either should test everyone regularly or just flat out let everyone do them if they choose to. Since steroids are a class 3 drug (I don't agree that they should be but they are) it is illegal to use them. Caffene, METRX and Creatine are not illegal so I say let them use em up.

I think most steroid users would disagree with you here. I remember somebody (I don't recall who) saying that they could feel themselves growing while they were laying in bed at night. Obviusly working out will increase the affect of the steroids, but steroids alone would do the trick as well.

basically what he said. Another huge factor of steroids is the mental edge it seems to give players. It makes them feel like Superman and builds thier confidence.

So, follow the letter of the law basically?

I'd draw the line at Anabolic Steroids and say blood doping, I know blood doping isn't really a baseball thing but still.

I tend to believe that Anabolic Steroids are on a level above all other supplements and no one yet knows the health risks. People are going to do it anyway because the money is so huge.

Weird coming from a libertarian I know, but I see no reason why these guys can't get by without roids. If they can't they don't belong in the league.

There are percieved serious health repercussions from this kind of steroid use but to date there is no real Lyle Alzado in MLB, only Ken Caminiti and those circumstances are different.

Ephedra has been universally banned in the US as well. Again being a libertarian I think people should be free to screw their own bodies into oblivian if they so choose but the short term use of Anabolics is going to screw players up more than any other supplement on the market and the players union if they really cared about these guys would be doing what they can to eliminate it. Steroids don't hit pitches true, but they sure help recovery time and allow old players more productive years, so that's where I draw the line. I'll go with Ozzie Guiien and blame the Players Association for not publishing a do not take list.

i'm with skip caray.

the league should consult with the players' union to decide a list, which should be large and strictly enforced, and in all cases health effects should be the reason drugs are banned.

Oh, I think Bonds was into blood doping more than steriods or steriod creams.

blood doping is definitely part of baseball. that's how you do HGH, right?

But again, you want a level playing field. I brought up the physical size difference - David Eckstein has a distinct disadvantage when it comes to other, larger players, but I don't see anyone suggesting breaking baseball leagues into heavyweight/middleweight/lightweight categories? And is it level if everybody's hepped up on creatine, caffeine, and ephedra, but there's a player with great talent who happens to be mormon and against ALL foreign substances?

There's only two solutions:

1. Let them all do everything
2. Have a "let them all do everything" league and a "puritanical/nothing stronger than gatorade" league. Free market decides which one wins. Hate steroids? Put your money where your mouth and soapbox are.

The last sentence is really the answer to the current crisis without anything as drastic as my choices. If they lose money, they will fix the money losing problem. If they don't, they won't. It's basic economics and is why a free market economy is best (uh oh, getting into news/debate forum fodder here!)

So should prozac be banned too? Training, god, meditation, psychosis, a lot of different factors can build confidence. This cannot be an argument against steroid use...stick to the "level playing field" and "health risk" talking points!

Physical differnces have always been a part of the game. The distinct advantage that steroids gives players has not always been part of the game. it's unfair to the players that choose not to cheat. These blatant cheaters are making millions of dollars because of this shit and it's just plain wrong. I think if a baseball fan truly loved their sport they would want the game to be fair.

I'm all for giving someone a pass for something they bought at GNC or some other vitamin/supplement store. At the same time, these players have trainers and nutrionalists that should be able to tell them whether something they bought there will trigger a postive steriod test. I would buy a player that tested positive coming out and saying I bought such and such at GNC and that's the only thing I've taken. I would buy it once, but if it happened twice, that would be it.

I'm almost to the point where I just don't give a fuck anymore. Just let em do whatever they want to their bodies.