Manual for Free Living had some kick-ass artwork.... but as far as the content goes, it almost made me puke. Zinn is such a wanker, he has to clue what he's talking about most of the time. Just one of those guys who really has a skewed vision of what's going on in the Mideast (skewed from the other end of the spectrum I guess). And the Moore stuff really killed me. He thinks that the only way to change something is to have a radical solution - a solution that is too reasonable (but works) won't do in his mind- it HAS to be radical. A very bad train of thought if you ask me... it causes as much discourse in the world as those on the far right.

You should read the book "Rebel Sell". Now THAT is good writting (not good artwork though!)

i understand what you are saying, but asking the right wing nicely will not work. We are dealing with an evil crew here.

zinn a wanker? not bloody likely. maybe he thinks your views are skewed.

I think the content is dead fuckin on. I think the time for a revolution is here. If you don't, then maybe you know something I don't.

I think at every point in modern history, people have said "I think the for a revolution is here." That's nothing new.... the feelings you have now are the same that people everywhere have had as long as history has been recorded. That feeling will never cease.

It's just that the ideas of these blind, self-righteous, theorists (Zinn, moore, chomsky, etc.) are completely ridiculous and uneffective. You don't always need a "radical, revolutionizing" theory to find a solution to something. Most times, a logical path can be taken to get to the end result. Instead, these guys throw away good ideas because they aren't 'radical' enough, and then just bitch and complain about nothing being done. It's BS. This whole "revolution" idea has got to stop because it doesnt get anyone anywhere.

to say it doesn't get anyone anywhere is to ignore history alltogether. maybe they do throw away rationale ideas, but the more you learn about what is going on, the deeper the conspiracy gets. any "rationale" idea at this point seems like a bullshit compromise.

My only beef with some of these guys is that I don't hear a whole lot of ideas. anyone can bitch. I think Howard Zinn is one of the most insightful people of our times. Unfortunately, extreme ideas need to be put forth to correct the inbalance that exists today, and is only getting worse.

A revolution doesn't necessarily have to be with guns, it could be mental. if enough people read these guys, maybe the right ideas will come forward. The shit they are writing is true. its not like these people are making shit up.

without these authors, we're left with not only the right wing, but the middle, which can be just as bad.

Exactly my point. These guy are no better than the people they criticize because their extreme views are skewed and inaccurate. They do much harm by spreading their venom... it's dangerous to brainwash people that way... Either way, people are getting brainwashed, some people more in certain parts of the world than others.

Bear in mind that people like Moore, Zinn, etc. have no real power. Their arguement is a moral critique. It is up to the people with political power to decide how much of their moral stance they agree with and then look for places to inact it.

Good points. But I still see a connection between all of them in terms of their moral influence on others. Either way, we're fucked. People are just fucked up to begin with.

Is there a substantive point you disagree with them on? They all share something of a hostiltiy towards american domestic (and especially foreign) policy, but if you're idealistic it is easy to be cynical---and it is only exacerbated by how self-righteous America tends to be about itself. Is it the 'america hating' that turns you off, or something else?

Well, to begin with, I'm Canadian. It's not that they are america-hating, it's why they are america-hating. I mostly disagree with their views on middle east policy, much like I disagree with others on it. I think their views are dangerous and promote much hatred. Specifically, their views on the Israeli-Arab conflict (which we could get into a much larger discussion about, but I'll leave that for another day). They think that people involved in a 'revolution' or 'uprising' are the 'good guys', whether their reasons are justifiable or not (usually not). Basically, I think their views on the israeli-arab conlict are so horrendously wrong that they exacerbate the tension and brainwash people.

they definitely have underdog/little guy sensibilites. But is the voice of the palestinians so strong in this country that people like them aren't needed?

no f-in way. if it weren't for people like that, most american would have no clue about the palestinian plight. all they would know id that they blow up supermarkets to the poor oppressed Israelis.

I personally think it is the america hating that turns people off. I don't hate america, but I hate what our government does. Like most societies, the people are dragged along for the ride. I don't intend on being a yes man, and I'm glad people like moore, chomsky and zinn are speaking for those who can't.

I see they've gotten to you then (i.e. brainwash)...

I don't know if that tag is really fair. Before you accuse him of being brainwashed what sorts of substantive problems do you have with the arugements of people like Moore, Chomsky, Zinn, etc. What if he just agrees with them? You mentioned the middle east before, and that their views promote hatred. What specifically? And if not for people like them what sort of voice do the palestinaian people, who are living under conditions pretty similar to the ghettos the jews found themselves in Europe in the Nazi era, have?

We could argue about this until the day we die... so I guess no point in starting. No point in a tit-for-tat debate here. I just wanted to express my feelings about those authors and thier views, and how they differ from mine. I just think it's sad that people have been misinformed on certain topics. It's just frustrating. In the grand scheme of things, I guess this argument will never end.

I just wanted to voice my opinion on the theme of "manual for free living" and show that even though I am a hardcore fan of PJ music (quite possibly obsessed), I completely disagree with their politics on some issues (indirectly- I just assume that they share most of the views of Zinn, CHomsy, etc). I guess it is a testament to how good their music is!

That's still a dodge. How are they misinformed? If you want this to be a debate I can move it to news and debate if you want




It is.

I was enjoying reading the discussion up to this post. You just lost some points

You can move it to News if you want to.

What I meant was the general public is being misinformed on the Israeli-Arab issue by reading their stuff. They validate the terrorism committed by certain parties as justified. They are not proponents of a fair peace process or plan, in my eyes, because no matter what Israel does for concessions (which have been many), they VERY quickly forget, and continue recycling subjective garbage. In other words, they choose to look over certain issues, and concentrate on negativity towards Israel.

OK, Israel has been unfortunate in that they have made mistakes historically, but no nation hasn't. They are unfairly criticized and ostracized. No other country, ever, has been pushed up against a wall or bullied as much as Israel. Inevitably they will make mistakes. But they are compassionate and fair. Their military is very humane, contrary to the teachings of these authors. In the thick of it, people justify Palestinian terrorism as just, because they are doing it "out of desperation". Why can't the same be said about Israel? Their defence strategies are done out of a desperation to merely exist. They are continuously, since the first day of their existance, threatened and attacked. Why is it that the Intifadah has been given leverage and legitimacy? I dont see indigenous groups in Mexico blowing up cafes, or Tibetans firing rockets into China. They continue this terrorism because it works. That is why you barely hear a peep about the European conquest of America, or the illegal control of Tibet by China. A good book is Dershowitz's "Why Terrorism Works". It works because people like chomsky and zinn legitimize it, which therefore skews people's perspectives of what is really going on.

How do you transfer this to the News and Debate forum?

Have any of these guys ever said that terrorism was just? NOT that they understood why people felt desperate enough to engage in it, but that it was legitimate? I'd be really suprised if that was true.

And as far as the dershowitz book goes, I haven't read it but I think you are drastically overestimating the influence of people like Chomsky et all. They do think that there are legitimate grievances the palesinian people have, and that Isreal is occupying a foreign country and inflicting harm upon those people (a pov I share (and I'm jewish) although I'm also sympathetic to the isreali position).

In the end everyone speaks for Isreal--and MANY speak uncritically in their favor (far more than speak for the palestinains). Few voices in the US speak for the palestinains and even if Moore et all may be unfairly biased in their favor, on the grand scale their presence is very small, and the only voice the palestinains have speaking up for them. It's not like these guys are speaking for a mass movement on the verge of highjacking the political process.

I don't see anything wrong with attempting understand why a culture is acting in the manner in which they are instead of just labeling them as extreme idealists, they are people not villians. Taking the time and effort to understand both sides of this situation can be only a positive.