Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
if you'd like to avoid the link, here's the story:
Torture and Death of Jew Deepen Fears in France
By CRAIG S. SMITH
BAGNEUX, France, March 3 — Two strips of red-and-white police tape bar the entrance to the low-ceilinged pump room where a young Jewish man, Ilan Halimi, spent the last weeks of his life, tormented and tortured by his captors and eventually splashed with acid in an attempt to erase any traces of their DNA.
The floor of the concrete room, in the cellar of 4, rue Serge-Prokofiev, is bare except for a few packets of rat poison, a slowly drying wet mark and a dozen small circles drawn and numbered in white chalk, presumably marking the spots where the police retrieved evidence of Mr. Halimi's ordeal.
Mr. Halimi, 23, died Feb. 13, shortly after he was found near a train station 15 miles away by passers-by, after crawling out of the wooded area where he was dumped. He was naked and bleeding from at least four stab wounds to his throat, his hands bound and adhesive tape covering his mouth and eyes. According to the initial autopsy report, burns, apparently from the acid, covered 60 percent of his body.
"I knew they had someone down there," said a young French-Arab man, loitering in the doorway of a building adjacent to the one where Mr. Halimi was held. He claimed to live upstairs from the makeshift dungeon but would not give his name or say whether he knew then that the man was a Jew. "I didn't know they were torturing him," he said. "Otherwise, I would have called the police."
But it is clear that plenty of people did know, both that Mr. Halimi was being tortured and that he was Jewish. The police, according to lawyers with access to the investigation files, think at least 20 people participated in his abduction and the subsequent, amateurish negotiations for ransom. His captors told his family that if they did not have the money, they should "go and get it from your synagogue," and later contacted a rabbi, telling him, "We have a Jew."
The horrifying death has stunned France, which has Europe's largest Muslim and largest Jewish populations. Last weekend, tens of thousands of people marched against racism and anti-Semitism in Paris, joined by the interior minister, Nicholas Sarkozy, and smaller marches took place in several other French cities, including Marseille.
In the wake of the riots that broke out in the immigrant-heavy Paris suburbs last fall, the case seems to embody the social problems of immigration, race and class that France has been facing with so much uncertainty. The emerging details raise deep fears of virulent anti-Semitism within the hardening underclass, and point to the decaying social fabric in which that underclass lives.
Those that the police say kidnapped and killed Mr. Halimi called themselves the Barbarians, and included people of different backgrounds: the children of blacks from sub-Saharan Africa and the Caribbean, of Arabs from North Africa, of at least one Persian from Iran, and of whites from Portugal and France.
The gang's leader was a tall, charismatic young man named Youssouf Fofana, 25, one of five children born in Paris to at least nominally Muslim immigrants from Ivory Coast. When he was a teenager, the family moved to the bleak neighborhood of 12-story concrete apartment blocks where Mr. Halimi was held.
He returned to his mother's apartment and used his prison credentials to assume the role of senior tough among younger, idle men and women, people in the neighborhood say. Lawyers familiar with the case suggest that this is when the seeds of the Barbarians were sown.
By 2004, the police say, he tried extortion, aiming at prominent French Jews. When that failed, the gang apparently turned to kidnapping, using young women as bait.
The Barbarians are thought to have been behind six attempted abductions, four of Jewish men, before succeeding with Mr. Halimi.
In a case in early January, a woman tried repeatedly to get a Jewish music producer to meet her on the outskirts of Paris, finally managing instead to persuade his father to come to a suburban parking lot, on the pretext that she had music CD's that belonged to his son. Several men met the father instead, beating him senseless when he resisted their attempt to force him into their car.
Mike Akiba worked with Mr. Halimi at Voltaire Phone in Paris, one of a dozen tiny Jewish-owned cellular telephone shops along Boulevard Voltaire in the 11th Arrondissement. He said Mr. Halimi was alone in the store when a 17-year-old French-Iranian girl came in and flirted with him. Mr. Akiba said she might have thought Mr. Halimi, a handsome man with piercing brown eyes, was the owner.
Mr. Halimi told Mr. Akiba about her the next day and said he had agreed to meet her that Friday night near Porte d'Orleans, a neighborhood on Paris's southern edge. Mr. Akiba last saw him about 10:30 p.m. on Friday, Jan. 20, as he drove from Boulevard Voltaire in his Champagne-colored Renault Twingo.
Mr. Halimi apparently met the woman as planned, then drove her to Sceaux, a suburb near Bagneux, where his captors must have grabbed him. His car was later found abandoned in a parking lot there.
Mr. Akiba said the investigating police officers discovered the gang had tried the same tactic on several men in the other phone shops.
Mr. Halimi was taken to the Pierre-Plate housing project in Bagneux, and initially held in an empty third-floor apartment at 1, rue Serge-Prokofiev, with the help of the building's superintendent, according to the lawyers who have seen the investigative files. The gang covered his eyes and mouth with tape, leaving only a hole for a straw.
The Halimi family's first contact with the kidnappers was the night of Saturday, Jan. 21, when a gang member called Mr. Halimi's girlfriend and instructed her to log on to a Hotmail e-mail account. That began a series of agonizingly disjointed communications from Mr. Halimi's abductors that included hundreds of phone calls and e-mail messages, and ransom demands that started at $500,000 and dropped to $5,000, said the family's lawyer, Francis Szpiner.
After a few days, the gang moved their captive to the concrete basement room beneath a section of the building a few doors down. They shaved his head and sliced his cheek with a knife, photographed him with blood running down his face, and e-mailed the picture to his family.
As the days wore on, his captors turned increasingly cruel, stripping off his clothes and beating, scratching and cutting him. A burning cigarette was pressed into his forehead.
The family was instructed to send a ransom to Ivory Coast, via Western Union, and Mr. Fofana traveled to that country at least once in early February. According to reports after his eventual arrest, it was after the ransom failed to arrive that the torture of Mr. Halimi began in earnest.
On the evening of Feb. 13, Mr. Halimi was found. It is not yet clear when he was stabbed or whether his captors thought he was dead when they dumped him among the trees behind the Ste.-Geneviève-des-Bois train station south of Paris.
One was the 17-year-old French-Iranian believed to have lured Mr. Halimi to his death. The sketch of a second woman proved particularly accurate, and when it was shown on television, many people recognized her as Audrey Lorleach, 24, lawyers involved in the case say.
When Mr. Fofana saw his name and image in the French media the next day, he was enraged and called Mr. Halimi's father and girlfriend and various of his accomplices in France from Abidjan, threatening them all — and confirming his whereabouts to the police. He was arrested on Feb. 22. [Mr. Fofana was returned to France on Saturday after being handed over to French custody by Ivorian authorities, Agence France-Presse reported.]
So far, a total of 19 people, ages 17 to 39, have been arrested in connection with Mr. Halimi's abduction and death, including the French-Iranian woman, whose first name is Yalda.
The police found Islamist literature and documents supporting a Palestinian aid group in the home of at least one of the people arrested, but lawyers involved in the case dismiss Islamic extremism as a motivation, noting that many of the people involved were not Muslim. The Halimis' lawyer, Mr. Szpiner, denied French news reports that the gang had called Mr. Halimi's family and recited the Koran.
Mr. Fofana has admitted his involvement. In an interview videotaped by a local journalist at the police station in Abidjan and broadcast on French television, a smiling, relaxed Mr. Fofana denied that he killed Mr. Halimi and dismissed the anti-Semitic aspect of the abduction.
"It was done for financial ends," he said on the tape.
Standing in the doorway in Bagneux near where Mr. Halimi was held, the young French-Arab man smiled when asked about Mr. Fofana. "He was nice, everybody liked him," he said. "If the police bring him back here, the guys in the neighborhood will liberate him."
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Notice how Jewish people across the world haven't gone fuckng nuts by burning flags, burning cars, or chanting "Death to (fill in the blank)". They had a peaceful march denouncing racism. This is what civilized people do - they don't go ape-shit into a rabid fervour like other groups we know. Kudos to the jewish community of France for showing such class.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:31 am Posts: 771 Location: Malaysia
corduroy11 wrote:
Notice how Jewish people across the world haven't gone fuckng nuts by burning flags, burning cars, or chanting "Death to (fill in the blank)". They had a peaceful march denouncing racism. This is what civilized people do - they don't go ape-shit into a rabid fervour like other groups we know. Kudos to the jewish community of France for showing such class.
funnily enough, it was only a few countries that people went *apeshit*
Notice how Jewish people across the world haven't gone fuckng nuts by burning flags, burning cars, or chanting "Death to (fill in the blank)". They had a peaceful march denouncing racism. This is what civilized people do - they don't go ape-shit into a rabid fervour like other groups we know. Kudos to the jewish community of France for showing such class.
funnily enough, it was only a few countries that people went *apeshit*
In reference to the cartoon riots, by a few countries do you mean Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, Indonesia, etc, etc?? Yeah, I guess that only counts as a couple here and there.
I was also making reference to the riots in France last year when Muslim youths were killed and people went absolutely, raving ballistic.
Quote:
the rest couldnt give a damn.
Hahaha- the funniest thing i've heard in a long time. Yeah, for the most part the muslim world is quite tolerant of other peoples' culture and freedoms
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
corduroy11 wrote:
fakeplasticdreams wrote:
corduroy11 wrote:
Notice how Jewish people across the world haven't gone fuckng nuts by burning flags, burning cars, or chanting "Death to (fill in the blank)". They had a peaceful march denouncing racism. This is what civilized people do - they don't go ape-shit into a rabid fervour like other groups we know. Kudos to the jewish community of France for showing such class.
funnily enough, it was only a few countries that people went *apeshit*
In reference to the cartoon riots, by a few countries do you mean Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, Indonesia, etc, etc?? Yeah, I guess that only counts as a couple here and there.
I was also making reference to the riots in France last year when Muslim youths were killed and people went absolutely, raving ballistic.
Quote:
the rest couldnt give a damn.
Hahaha- the funniest thing i've heard in a long time. Yeah, for the most part the muslim world is quite tolerant of other peoples' culture and freedoms
The riots over the pictures were over much more than the pictures.
This is sick. What's especially horrible about these kinds of crimes is how they make it impossible for the two sides to talk to each other given the way they inflame passions (understandably). That's one of the reasons that you have so many rapes and mutilations in civil wars. They make reconcilliation much harder.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
corduroy11 wrote:
fakeplasticdreams wrote:
corduroy11 wrote:
Notice how Jewish people across the world haven't gone fuckng nuts by burning flags, burning cars, or chanting "Death to (fill in the blank)". They had a peaceful march denouncing racism. This is what civilized people do - they don't go ape-shit into a rabid fervour like other groups we know. Kudos to the jewish community of France for showing such class.
funnily enough, it was only a few countries that people went *apeshit*
In reference to the cartoon riots, by a few countries do you mean Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, Indonesia, etc, etc?? Yeah, I guess that only counts as a couple here and there.
I was also making reference to the riots in France last year when Muslim youths were killed and people went absolutely, raving ballistic.
Quote:
the rest couldnt give a damn.
Hahaha- the funniest thing i've heard in a long time. Yeah, for the most part the muslim world is quite tolerant of other peoples' culture and freedoms
Comments like this doesn't help. the muslim world doesn't speak with one voice. Neither does the jewish world. It's that kind of essenstialist thinking that exacerbates these tensions. It's no different than anti-semitism.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
Notice how Jewish people across the world haven't gone fuckng nuts by burning flags, burning cars, or chanting "Death to (fill in the blank)". They had a peaceful march denouncing racism. This is what civilized people do - they don't go ape-shit into a rabid fervour like other groups we know. Kudos to the jewish community of France for showing such class.
funnily enough, it was only a few countries that people went *apeshit*
In reference to the cartoon riots, by a few countries do you mean Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, Indonesia, etc, etc?? Yeah, I guess that only counts as a couple here and there.
I was also making reference to the riots in France last year when Muslim youths were killed and people went absolutely, raving ballistic.
Quote:
the rest couldnt give a damn.
Hahaha- the funniest thing i've heard in a long time. Yeah, for the most part the muslim world is quite tolerant of other peoples' culture and freedoms
Comments like this doesn't help. the muslim world doesn't speak with one voice. Neither does the jewish world. It's that kind of essenstialist thinking that exacerbates these tensions. It's no different than anti-semitism.
i agree with stip here. painting an entire religion - any religion - with the same brush is not the way to understanding and reconciliation.
having made that clear, i cannot get over the savage nature of this crime. and the way they lured this guy in - christ. what a tragedy.
_________________ "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." - Optimus Prime
Notice how Jewish people across the world haven't gone fuckng nuts by burning flags, burning cars, or chanting "Death to (fill in the blank)". They had a peaceful march denouncing racism. This is what civilized people do - they don't go ape-shit into a rabid fervour like other groups we know. Kudos to the jewish community of France for showing such class.
funnily enough, it was only a few countries that people went *apeshit*
In reference to the cartoon riots, by a few countries do you mean Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, Indonesia, etc, etc?? Yeah, I guess that only counts as a couple here and there.
I was also making reference to the riots in France last year when Muslim youths were killed and people went absolutely, raving ballistic.
Quote:
the rest couldnt give a damn.
Hahaha- the funniest thing i've heard in a long time. Yeah, for the most part the muslim world is quite tolerant of other peoples' culture and freedoms
Comments like this doesn't help. the muslim world doesn't speak with one voice. Neither does the jewish world. It's that kind of essenstialist thinking that exacerbates these tensions. It's no different than anti-semitism.
i agree with stip here. painting an entire religion - any religion - with the same brush is not the way to understanding and reconciliation.
having made that clear, i cannot get over the savage nature of this crime. and the way they lured this guy in - christ. what a tragedy.
Obviously you can't paint an entire religion with the same brush - which is why i put "for the most part". On the other hand, I keep being told by non-Muslims that the "real" people in these inflammed nations are moderate and do not harbour resentment or ill-feelings towards the West. I still cannot figure that one out... I mean, their governments control the media, so the public is constantly fed conspiracy theories about how all their problems are caused by Israel and America. Obviously, after generations and generations of this brainwashing, people believe it is the truth. So, although they may not know any better, in my eyes, they do hold prejudice against the West and Israel. This is why, for the most part, riots of all kinds are allowed to take place - because their governments strive to have their people angry with the West rather than with their own governments.
i think where you have apoint is that so many of these governments repress and attempt to weed out moderate viewpoints. what's sad is that by doing so, these nations are destroying their international credibilty - not to mention fomenting violence. i mean the iranian guy is clearly insane.
_________________ "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." - Optimus Prime
i think where you have apoint is that so many of these governments repress and attempt to weed out moderate viewpoints. what's sad is that by doing so, these nations are destroying their international credibilty - not to mention fomenting violence. i mean the iranian guy is clearly insane.
Is it really destroying their international credibility though?? I feel as though the people of moderate nations (USA, canada, western europe, etc) let this happen and sympathize with them. I feel as though they gain credibility because people think to themselves "We better stop doing things with they see as provocation because they clearly go apeshit over it". That is how I feel at least.
But yes, the president of Iran is clearly off his rocker. He acts like a little second grade bully/ cry-baby, i.e. likes to bully others around, but then throws a temper-tantrum when provoked in the slightest.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
corduroy11 wrote:
Obviously you can't paint an entire religion with the same brush - which is why i put "for the most part". On the other hand, I keep being told by non-Muslims that the "real" people in these inflammed nations are moderate and do not harbour resentment or ill-feelings towards the West.
You really ought to listen and think more before you post. The person to whom you are responding is a Muslim, from Malaysia, and is a very moderate voice on this board in almost all matters. If you go back to the cartoons thread, he posted a very long and excellent article from a Malaysian journalist about the madness of the riots.
I'm very happy to have your new conservative voice in the forum, we don't have nearly enough, but we certainly don't need any more rude and impatient people of any political persuation.
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
the last thing i wanted was for this thread to devolve into another islam vs. the west debate.
corduroy11 has some valid points about violence as a means of protest ultimately being destructive, but i think he's a bit overboard when he states that incidents of islamic violence makes the west more empathic towards islam. and - this is the crucial point - i think the vast majority of muslims understand that violence will only polarize cultures further and beget more misuunderstands and violence. it's their governments who are letting them down.
but i guess what disturbed me most was both the calculated set-up of this crime and then the brutal, savage torture that followed. how anyone could lose sight of another person's humanity to the extent that they could pour acid on his face is just beyond me.
_________________ "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." - Optimus Prime
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
DeLima wrote:
but i guess what disturbed me most was both the calculated set-up of this crime and then the brutal, savage torture that followed. how anyone could lose sight of another person's humanity to the extent that they could pour acid on his face is just beyond me.
I make my first year writing students do a paper on this question--looking at how the reification (the turning of a person into an object) of someone is a precondition of a hate crime
It's worth saying too that the most succesful protest movements of the 20th century were all grounded in non-violence. Ghandi in India, MLK in the US, Mandella in South Africa. It's a lesson the palestinians need to learn (and I say this as someone who is sympathetic to their cause)
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
but i guess what disturbed me most was both the calculated set-up of this crime and then the brutal, savage torture that followed. how anyone could lose sight of another person's humanity to the extent that they could pour acid on his face is just beyond me.
I make my first year writing students do a paper on this question--looking at how the reification (the turning of a person into an object) of someone is a precondition of a hate crime
It's worth saying too that the most succesful protest movements of the 20th century were all grounded in non-violence. Ghandi in India, MLK in the US, Mandella in South Africa. It's a lesson the palestinians need to learn (and I say this as someone who is sympathetic to their cause)
great post on all counts. what a great way to engage and educate students
_________________ "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." - Optimus Prime
but i guess what disturbed me most was both the calculated set-up of this crime and then the brutal, savage torture that followed. how anyone could lose sight of another person's humanity to the extent that they could pour acid on his face is just beyond me.
I make my first year writing students do a paper on this question--looking at how the reification (the turning of a person into an object) of someone is a precondition of a hate crime
It's worth saying too that the most succesful protest movements of the 20th century were all grounded in non-violence. Ghandi in India, MLK in the US, Mandella in South Africa. It's a lesson the palestinians need to learn (and I say this as someone who is sympathetic to their cause)
I agree completely with your assessment of the non-violence movement. I only wish people would give more politcal leverage and attention to those who have legitamate grievances but who don't resort to violence (i.e. Tibetans, Aboriginals of australia)
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:38 am Posts: 5575 Location: Sydney, NSW
corduroy11 wrote:
I mean, their governments control the media, so the public is constantly fed conspiracy theories about how all their problems are caused by Israel and America. Obviously, after generations and generations of this brainwashing, people believe it is the truth. So, although they may not know any better, in my eyes, they do hold prejudice against the West and Israel. This is why, for the most part, riots of all kinds are allowed to take place - because their governments strive to have their people angry with the West rather than with their own governments.
How do you explain the Muslim opinion in India, then? The press is free, the country is predominantly Hindu, and the country as a whole is tolerant and supportive of the West. Despite having been occupied by the British not so long ago, and despite having favored the Soviets in the Cold War.
_________________
Jammer91 wrote:
If Soundgarden is perfectly fine with playing together with Tad Doyle on vocals, why the fuck is he wasting his life promoting the single worst album of all time? Holy shit, he has to be the stupidest motherfucker on earth.
Obviously you can't paint an entire religion with the same brush - which is why i put "for the most part". On the other hand, I keep being told by non-Muslims that the "real" people in these inflammed nations are moderate and do not harbour resentment or ill-feelings towards the West.
You really ought to listen and think more before you post. The person to whom you are responding is a Muslim, from Malaysia, and is a very moderate voice on this board in almost all matters. If you go back to the cartoons thread, he posted a very long and excellent article from a Malaysian journalist about the madness of the riots.
I'm very happy to have your new conservative voice in the forum, we don't have nearly enough, but we certainly don't need any more rude and impatient people of any political persuation.
I haven't yet read his post on the cartoon issue- I'll have to go back and find it... Also, I'm not part of the group that you Americans label as "conservative"- I'm 100% pro-choice and anti-gun (in fact, I don't think I've ever even seen a gun). I'm in favour of allowing gays to marry. I think that teaching "intelligent design" in biology class is about as smart as teaching students about Monty Python in history class. So, on all these accounts, I am outright liberal (or democratic, whatever it is called in the USA). I'm just more of a realist when it comes to foreign affairs. I wish I could believe that a majority of Muslims harbour no ill-feelings towards Jews or Americans or Westerners in general, but it's just not what I see. I really would love to be proved wrong on that account, but it's just not what is happening.
I'm not saying it is the people's fault for their aggression towards the West, but it is definately part of their nations' domestic policy to put blame on Israel/USA for things which have absolutely nothing to do with them! I also find it disheartening that people are not allowed into "moderate" muslim countries such as the UAE if they have ever traveled to Israel. That is what really kills me
I mean, their governments control the media, so the public is constantly fed conspiracy theories about how all their problems are caused by Israel and America. Obviously, after generations and generations of this brainwashing, people believe it is the truth. So, although they may not know any better, in my eyes, they do hold prejudice against the West and Israel. This is why, for the most part, riots of all kinds are allowed to take place - because their governments strive to have their people angry with the West rather than with their own governments.
How do you explain the Muslim opinion in India, then? The press is free, the country is predominantly Hindu, and the country as a whole is tolerant and supportive of the West. Despite having been occupied by the British not so long ago, and despite having favored the Soviets in the Cold War.
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean the how the Indian Muslim community is moderate? Or how they are constantly in fights with the Hindus?
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